I had hoped for a bit more discussion yesterday, especially with suggestions on how to decide if a nation is Christian or not. I appreciated Jon’s addition of “the DNA of a culture,” though I wish we could have fleshed out a bit just what that looks like.
One common argument that I think has to be rejected is about laws being based on the 10 Commandments. Have you read the 10 Commandments lately? If not, take a moment, turn to Exodus 20, read them, then come back here.
There have been societies that tried to enforce most if not all of the 10 Commandments. I don’t think there is a modern society that does so. Laws about coveting? Honoring parents? Not taking the Lord’s Name in vain? Not that I can tell. Graven images? Polytheism? Keeping the Sabbath? We’ve just knocked out 6 of the 10, for those of you keeping score at home. A few places still have adultery laws, though I wonder when was the last time someone was prosecuted for adultery (here in the States).
That leaves us murder, theft, and perjury. Things which just about every culture forbids, be they Christian, Buddhist or otherwise. We can say that we punish those things because of our respect for the 10 Commandments, but that would be a hard case to prove.
I don’t doubt that many legislators and jurists respect the 10 Commandments. But to affirm that a modern legal system is somehow based on them is a distortion of the truth.
Tim, I agree we don’t even meet the minimal requirement to claim the name Christian Nation, but if we obeyed every Law within, The law that Moses brought down from the mountain, would that make us a Christian nation? That wouldn’t even make this a nation inhabited by Christians. We need to look a little closer in time to pick one to follow in order to be a Christ–ian.
Agreed Laymond. I’m merely examining something I often hear.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Tim, I could never see the big “Christian” argument about whether or not to remove the “craven Image of the Ten Commandments ” from in front of the courthouse in one of the southern states. Unless they wanted to exhibit a number of laws that were never adhered to?
It seems to me that somewhere within the pages of the bible, it is said there is a different covenant, from the one that was made in the desert.
Isa:24:5: The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.
Jer:3:16: And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the LORD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the LORD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more.
Jer:31:31: Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Jer:31:32: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
I’m not sure why we’re even using the term “Christian nation,” as, Biblically speaking, no earthly nation can ever be a Christian nation. Jesus mentioned that His kingdom was not an earthly one. The only “Christian nation” is the Kingdom of God. The 10 Commandments and the rest of the Law was part of a covenant God established with a specific group of people. If there is a nation today than can show the covenant God established specifically with them, fine. Otherwise, it’s hubris bordering on blasphemy to claim Christian status for any geopolitical unit…and it’s very poor exegesis, to boot.
I’ve mainly heard “Christian nation” to justify doing certain things in the name of patriotism. Can you think of other reasons why some insist on calling certain nations “Christian nations”?
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
I think there’s a great deal of cognitive dissonance among those who want us to be living in a “Christian nation.” Consider: if this truly were a nation in which Christian principles were enforced as a matter of law, how could we NOT open up the treasury to take care of the poor and provide health care for everyone? How could we justify people having the world’s goods and not sharing with brothers and sisters (all US citizens, if we are, in fact, a Christian nation) in need?
I understand why some people in the world may use that description for us: they truly don’t understand the history of God working with His people. What I cannot understand is how Christians can call any geopolitical state a Christian nation or, even worse, continue to misuse Solomon’s Temple prayer.
Romans 13 is clear: God established the United States. God established the Roman Empire. God established Iran. God established Venezuela. If we’re a “Christian nation,” so is Iran.
Tim,
To answer one of your questions in the post: when was the last time some one was prosecuted for adultry (in the states)?
O-4 sentenced to 60 days in adultery case
By Chris Amos – Staff writer
Posted : Tuesday May 27, 2008 17:03:51 EDT
A Navy supply officer was sentenced Saturday to 60 days in jail and fined two months pay after a military jury found that she had a sexual relationship with a married lieutenant junior grade and lied about it to her superiors.
After deliberating for approximately two hours, five captains and three commanders found Lt. Cmdr. Syneeda Penland guilty of adultery, conduct unbecoming an officer, making a false official statement and failing to obey a lawful order.
I say this tongue-in-cheek: it seems the military is more of a Christian nation than the nation.
I had a good discussion on this matter with my mother last night but have yet to draw my complete conclusions. So I will refrain from commenting farther just yet.
Steve Valentine
Steve, that’s interesting. I didn’t know that adultery was against military regulations. It definitely should be, not just from a spiritual standpoint, but in consideration of morale as well.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Pingback: Tweets that mention Christian Nation: The Ten Commandments | TimothyArcher.com/Kitchen -- Topsy.com
You make a good point, Tim. I would go even further and say that the Constitution of the United States takes steps to ALLOW for the breaking of the Ten Commandments. The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment guarantees to right to hold up other Gods ahead of YHWH. The “pursuit of happiness” (originally pursuit of property) practically encourages covetousness and can be used to justify adultery, etc. Our capitalistic society encourages us to break Sabbath.
Mr. Floyd makes a good point about opening up the treasury and taking care of the poor. I am convinced more and more that true Christianity begins with selflessness, which is not something you can impose on a nation.
I meant to say Free Exercise Clause…
I’m afraid the other side of identifying the nation as Christian is that we allow the nation’s values (some of which are very anti-Christian, as the better Robert points out) to influence our Christian values. When was the last time, for example, you heard a message encouraging us to emulate the example of the church at the end of Acts rather than explaining it away as a one time anomaly.
Perhaps the more important question for us isn’t if this is a Christian nation, but if we are a Secular church. If the only place we apply Christian principles and values is our church/”religious” life, can we truly say we’re practicing Christians? The question with which I struggle: to what degree can I pledge allegiance to the flag and to the Republic for which it stands? At what point does that become a form of Kyrios Caesar?
Steve, somewhat off topic, but I’m curious: was the Lt. JG also brought up on charges?
Tim,
Adultry is punishable under Uniform Code of Military Justice Article 134-2 and Sodomy under Article 125 as well as Bigamy under Article 134-5; OH, and bouncing a check. Moral is the determining factor, hence the tongue-in-cheek comment. It’s more to keep the well oiled machine well oiled.
Robert Floyd – I don’t know if LTJG Wiggan was prosecuted or not. Sounds like he cut a deal with the prosecutor.
I have refrained from weighing in because my thoughts on this subject could easily take over a post :-). Any ways…
Whatever drove the founding fathers of the US, it is clear that they had no moral qualms about revolting against government in spite of clear teaching in scripture to submitt to governing authorities rather that rebel against them (cf. Rom 13). It is clear that as the nation progressed, there were no moral qualms about shedding the innocent blood of those people who inhabbited the land first in order to make it “our land.” It is clear that certain people had no moral qualms about making progress on the backs of slaves. Today as we speak, our nation “officially” seems to have little moral qualms about committing a preemtive military strike (despite what Christian tradition regards as “just war”), about aborting an unborn child in the name of free choice (despite what Christian tradition regards as life), and so on… I say our nation “officially” because I realize that within the nation there are citizens who are opposed to both of these actions and many other actions officially carried out by the nation.
My point is this…whatever one thinks about whether this nation was founded as a “Christian Nation” and whether it continues to be that, it is clear that from the nation’s beginning on into the present that the nation has officially been and continues to practice a selective morality. I suggest that history shows a nation which has operated under the utilitarian ethic where the ends justifies the means and as long as the nation is able to acheive the end goal it desires, it ultimately will do whatever it wills – ethical or not – to acheive that end and justify it in the name of progress (the American dream). And ultimately, that end goal is about putting the nation first – as lord over all else – which in itself is as far removed from authentic Christianity as one can get since from a Christian worldview, there is only One who is Lord over all.
So is the United States a Christian Nation? Ask Jesus that question. What do we think his answer would be?
Grace and peace,
Rex
OK Tim, here is my initial response to yesterday’s question which I didn’t want to post rashly, but my answer is that there is no such thing as a Christian nation. There may be many Judeo-Christian influences on a national culture, but to be a Christian nation the government and nation would have to be totally sold out to God’s purpose and mission. In other words, become the church.
I’m surprised my comment was even noticed. It’s hard to flesh out the notion of “Christian DNA” in a quick blog post.
Rendering to Caesar may be expedient, but I don’t think it’s really the mark of Christian compassion. That makes the discussion of whether a government is “Christian” kind of pointless. How does a population act, overall? How closely does it adhere to Godly principles expressed in the Bible?
It’s easy to take a particular example and claim that America is forever flawed in the eyes of God. But we are generally a kind and humble people. I have spent a reasonable amount of time working in other cultures, and it takes time to scratch the surface and see those cultural differences. (Sometimes, it’s quite easy.) When I stack up the behavior of the vast majority of Americans I interact with, I see more “Christian DNA” than in other countries I’ve visited. Some differences are subtle, some stark.
Americans are–on the whole–very open to foreigners.
We are, on the whole, very law-abiding.
We are, on the whole, very tolerant of failure.
We are, on the whole, very forgiving.
We are, on the whole, very civil to each other in our day-to-day lives.
We are, on the whole, honest in our dealings with others.
We are, on the whole, a happy and hopeful people.
We are, on the whole, remarkably charitable and generous.
To take a single example: despite the lack of a nationalized, compulsory health care system, we do provide reasonable health care for our poorest. Some with Medicaid, but for others that fall through the cracks, we have countless examples of free or reduced-cost care available to those who are willing to ask. My wife, a family physician, is but one example.
The fact that churches, civic groups, and hordes of individual providers continue to make the conscious decision to provide care to the needy is an indication of the strong compassion of this country.
This isn’t to say that there aren’t ways to improve certain policies. And this isn’t to say that I’m thrilled with everything I see on TV, or that everything is wonder. To those of you ready to describe all that bad things going on right now: yes, they’re there. I’m just saying: look around with a little grace, too.
It’s too late to discuss comparisons (both good and bad) I’ve seen living in other countries.
Moral quality, while expected from Christians, does not make in and of itself a person or group Christian. It only means they posess a certain level of moral quality. What makes a person or group Christian fundamentally begins with whether or not they live under the Lordship of Jesus Christ. I submitt that when a nation or group, any for that matter, describes itself as “sovereign” and needs the threat of force to uphold that sovereignty, that nation or group does not live under the Lordship of Jesus Christ and therefore cannot rightfully claim to be “Christian.”
Grace and peace,
Rex
Pingback: Christian Nation: The teachings of Jesus | TimothyArcher.com/Kitchen
Thanks Jon. That helps me see what you mean. And I do agree that much of that is present. I would also argue, for example, that much of that description fits nations like Thailand, nations that are not inherently Christian. And much of that applies to people who have no belief in God at all.
I don’t want to start a U.S.-bashing session, but there’s a lot of ugliness in our past and in our D.N.A. as well.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
@Tim: My point is not to cheerlead for America or to whitewash the ugliness. I think I have spent enough time inside other cultures to think highly of the way Americans generally act and think.
Been to Thailand. Sort of got caught up in the Bangkok-wide jewelry/shopping scam–since we weren’t suckered, it made for a fun afternoon. While the description might fit, I think it’s fair to say that the actual political and judicial actions of Thailand don’t really compare favorably to the US. Do you?
I spent more time in Cambodia. My wife and I have gone on several medical mission trips there. We genuinely like the people. And hey, they have free health care–which automatically makes them better than America, right? But the level of day-to-day corruption, at the personal level and at all levels of government–including education and health care–is pretty shocking.
The best example of a nation that feels remarkably Christian without being Christian would be Japan. I came to really understand and appreciate the country. I’m not sure there’s anywhere else in the world where I could lose a wallet, and get it back with every yen accounted for. Their social contract is tight, the sense of societal shame is higher. There is a sense of honor and respect I don’t see in many other places.
But that sense of honor and shame forces some bizarre outlets. They are, deep down, pretty xenophobic. And the ugliness in their culture’s DNA easily surpasses that in American history.
It is also a mark of Christian DNA (an imperfect analogy that I increasingly dislike) that we are willing to look at our past relatively openly. Contrast to Japan (again, a country that I have great affection for), where World War 2 is still referred to as a war of liberation and whose shocking atrocities in that era are ignored or whitewashed.
Tim,
I think based on the actions of the nation of Israel in the OT I could make a pretty good argument that even they were not a nation of God and did not go by the Ten Commandments.
IMO we are talking living by certain principles. Did Jesus not say in His model prayer, “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven…”? First and foremost God wants all saved. Second, He wants all to live by His will. He wants heaven on earth. If a nation did such would they not then be a Christian nation? Alex de Touqville (sp?) came to the USA while our nation was still a young nation. He made the observation that, “The USA is not good because they are great. They are great because they are good.”
He went on to say that it was because of the Christian faith that existed in this nation. Christian nation? Maybe or maybe not. One thing is for certain for me and mine, I would much rather live where the influence of Christ prevails. And if it did not prevail I would certainly try to be involved in making it so.
God bless,
Gerry Parker