The identity of Jesus, Pt. 2

jesus“Hence we have the Father, Son and Holy Spirit equally divine, though personally distinct from each other. We have in fact, but one God, one Lord, one Holy Spirit; yet these are equally possessed of one and of the same divine nature.” (Alexander Campbell, The Christian System) From early times, many have affirmed that Jesus was “God made flesh.” The book The Da Vinci Code makes the claim that this belief is only as old as the Nicene Council of 325 A.D., yet we have older documents that refer to this doctrine. The Latin theologian Tertullian even used the term “trinity” to describe the relationship between Father, Son and Holy Spirit, and he lived about 100 years before the writing of the Nicene creed.

What is of interest to us, of course, is what the Bible says. Here’s a few arguments that are presented in favor of Jesus being “God made flesh”:

Direct statements in Scripture such as John 1:1; John 1:18; Romans 9:5; Titus 2:13; Hebrews 1:8; 2 Peter 1:1

Jesus accepted worship, while maintaining that we should worship God alone.

The Father and Jesus are often referred to in an interchangeable way:

Romans 8:9-11. Who lives in us? “the Spirit of God,” “the Spirit of Christ,” “Christ” “the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead,” “his Spirit”

In Revelation, we have these passages:
“I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Revelation 1:8)

“I am the First and the Last.” (Revelation 1:17 — Jesus speaking)

“He said to me: “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son.” (Revelation 21:6-7)

“Behold, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to everyone according to what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End… I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.” (Revelation 22:12-16)

Those around Jesus understood Him to be describing Himself as God, so much so that the Jews tried to kill Him for that very thing!

The apostle Thomas called Jesus “my Lord and my God” after Jesus’ resurrection.

I’ll open the floor for other arguments and comments on these.

8 thoughts on “The identity of Jesus, Pt. 2

  1. laymond

    Tim I will address your reasons for the belief that Jesus Is the God of creation/ one of a trinity. I can’t get to them all at once but will try to answer all.
    Christ is the “Alpha and Omega” (Rev. 1:11) of God’s creation. This creation is not the creation of trees and animals as recorded in Genesis 1, but rather the “creation” of new men and women. “Create” and “creation” are frequently used in this regenerative sense in the New Testament. See, for example, the following: Eph. 2:10, 15 cf. 4:23, 24; Col. 3:9, 10 R.S.V.; Gal. 6:15; James 1:18; 2 Cor. 5:17.

    Revelation 3:14 refers to this new creation and not to the creation of Genesis 1. This is indicated by the context:
    3:11: Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. (Rev. 3:11).
    3:12 “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God . . . and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem . . . and I will write upon him my new name.”
    . . .” (vs. 21). To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

    The “making”, “writing” and “granting” refer to the “new” Jerusalem and the new name – the ultimate regeneration of believers, and not to the creative acts on the earth of Genesis 1.

    In my opinion.

  2. Tim Archer Post author

    Wow. I hadn’t even noticed that the King James inserts Alpha and Omega into 1:11.

    So it doesn’t bother you a bit that the Lord God is called Alpha and Omega and Jesus is called that three verses later? Or that chapter 21 says the Alpha and Omega is “God” and chapter 22 says it’s Jesus?

    And if you’ll notice, 3:14 is in a different letter (of the seven) than the verses you quoted. The introduction of each of the seven letters refers back to chapter 1.

  3. laymond

    No Tim It doesn’t bother me that both God and Jesus are referred to as the “first and last” if we look in vs 18 I do believe it is explained why Jesus is called that.
    18: I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
    (Alpha – the first to die and be raised ) the first of the new creation.
    ( Omega – the last to be raised by God the Father)
    did you read any of the examples that referred to a new creation.
    If you notice Tim, that is Jesus’ job now, he has the keys.
    3:12 “Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God . . . and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem . . . and I will write upon him my new name.”
    Why Tim, did you ignore the three Times “my God ” as spoken, and the reference of two different names, “the name of my God” and “my new name”
    . . .” (vs. 21). To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
    It really don’t sound to me like Jesus is claiming to be God the Father of creation.

  4. Tim Archer Post author

    I don’t agree, which probably isn’t surprising. Adding to the text doesn’t get us anywhere. John wasn’t stupid. If he wanted to say those things, he could have said them. To use the same terms for Jesus and God repeatedly in the same book would be quite sloppy… and if you read Revelation, you know that John is anything but sloppy. EVERY image is carefully chosen.

    The thing is, I don’t have a problem with Jesus being separate from his Father and identified with him at the same time. That’s the mystery of the God that is 3 in 1. Bringing up such verses don’t harm my arguments at all. You, on the other hand, must deny each and every verse that refers to Jesus as God. That’s a lot of tap dancing!

  5. laymond

    If you notice, this is Jesus talking, who quite often talked in parables which often had to be explained, even to John.

    Tim, if you don’t have a problem with what you believe, maybe I am giving it to much attention, it is not like you haven’t had the same bible as myself. and time to decide.
    My last advice on this, is do a lot of study, you are going to have to answer Why. to the one who said plainly, no parables here.
    Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me,
    Deu 4:35 Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he [is] God; [there is] none else beside him.
    ( if you notice it says beside HIM, not them)
    Deu 4:39 Know therefore this day, and consider [it] in thine heart, that the LORD he [is] God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: [there is] none else.
    1Ki 8:60 That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD [is] God, [and that there is] none else.
    Isa 45:5 I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
    Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else.
    (yet, (if you believe in the trinity) you say there are two others exactly like him)

  6. Tim Archer Post author

    You mean two others that ARE him (you’ve never heard me say “exactly like him”).

    If lists of passages are what floats your boat, the Bible doesn’t lack for passages that say Jesus is God:
    “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1)
    “No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father’s side, has made him known.” (John 1:18)
    “Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”” (John 20:28)
    “Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood.” (Acts 20:28)
    “Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.” (Romans 9:5)
    “while we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ” (Titus 2:13)
    “Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours” (2 Peter 1:1)
    Those are just the passages that directly say Jesus is God.

  7. laymond

    Tim, most people with whom I speak about the “Trinity Doctrine” will eventually deny the words within that doctrine, just as you have done by saying , “You mean two others that ARE him (you’ve never heard me say “exactly like him”). ” Three individual, but equal persons” that is what the trinity doctrine says.
    There is one preacher who you would recognize as a blogger, argued with me about the doctrine, and when I asked him to describe his view of the trinity, he said God the Father is over God the son, and both are over God the Holy Ghost. In other words he didn’t believe in the trinity doctrine at all, he just didn’t know what it was.

  8. Tim Archer Post author

    That’s why dealing with people by labels doesn’t particularly help. I’m not defending the trinity doctrine. I’m talking about what the Bible says. I couldn’t care less about what some extra-biblical formula says.
    Grace and peace,
    Tim Archer

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