One of the most beautiful promises of the New Testament is that God will come to live inside of us, his children. We, both individually and collectively, are made into temples of God:
Romans 8:9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
2 Corinthians 6:16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”
Ephesians 2:21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord.
Colossians 1:27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
1 Peter 2:4 As you come to him, the living Stone—rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.
According to the New Testament, the implications of this are that we are to be holy, set apart from “common” things, just as the Old Testament temple was a special, sanctified place. God lives in us! We aren’t meant for immorality. Christ in us, the hope of glory. We are meant for good, not evil. The sanctifying Spirit dwells in us. Because of that, we are to dedicate our bodies to God’s service. The church is the temple of God. Therefore, anything that we do to harm the church is an attack on God’s temple.
We need to recapture that feeling of awe, the recognition of the holiness that is ours, not because of our human efforts, but because the Creator of all has chosen to make a home within our hearts.
Tim, according to the old testament, the covenant would change.
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
And the new testament said it did change.
Jhn 8:9 And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
Act 23:1 And Paul, earnestly beholding the council, said, Men [and] brethren, I have lived in all good conscience before God until this day.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
Tim, I believe this is what guides men of good conscience, “, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; “ I believe the bible said Jesus is at the right hand of God, and intercedes on our behalf.
I know it makes people feel better, when they say “I don’t have to make hard decisions on my own” but they do.
Tim, one more thing I intended to put in but forgot (getting old, mind going) When we take all those verses you named, as literal, I believe that is a mistake. Just my opinion.
Laymond,
I doubt anyone takes 1 Peter 2 as literal, although I’ve met a few people that I thought could qualify as stones. And I don’t think we’re a literal building, like Ephesians says.
Do I believe that God lives in us? Absolutely.
Grace and peace,
Tim
Tim, let’s look at some of the scripture you quoted. And just what it referrers to as the temple.
1 Corinthians 3:16 Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit lives in you?
Ephesians 2:21 In him the whole building is joined together and rises to become a holy temple in the Lord
1 Corinthians 6:19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;
Tim, Who is Paul talking to? Is he not talking to the Church/ body of Christ, if you notice he uses the plural such as “yourselves. The whole” if we look in 1 Cor. 6:19 , do you not think he is talking about the “body” of the Church and not individuals. Could it be that since he is talking to the Church, he is talking about the Church.
“You are not your own” the Church don’t belong to you.
If Jesus lives in each individual Christian, what does the following mean.?
Mt: 18:20: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
( why does it take more than one)?
A body/a Church small it may be, but he is still there.
I could go on , but won’t. I don’t expect that I will change minds, just telling why I believe what I do.
Laymond,
1 Corinthians 6 is in the context of sexual immorality. It talks about our taking Jesus with us IN OUR BODY when we go to a prostitute.
As for 1 Corinthians 3 and Ephesians 2, you are right. That’s why I wrote: “We, both individually and collectively, are made into temples of God.”
As for Mt. 18:20, context does wonders. It’s talking about church discipline, about talking with errant brothers. Unless you’re reprimanding yourself, there were always be at least two present. (You did ask, you know)
Romans 8:9-11 is a powerful passage. If Christ/the Spirit/the Spirit of God/the Spirit of Christ/the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead doesn’t live in us, we aren’t of God.
As for changing minds, well, that rarely happens in the blogosphere, at least it’s rarely admitted. But it’s good for us to show that we believe what we believe for a reason.
Grace and peace,
Tim
Tim said “Unless you’re reprimanding yourself, there were always be at least two present.”
I believe you missed the question on Mt. 18:20 .
If each individual Christian is indwelled by Christ
( why does it take more than one)? in order for Christ to be present. ?
Mt: 18:20: For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the ( midst) of them.
He didn’t say (I will reside in each of them, therefore there will be no disagreement)
Tim, you and I are proof that Christ is not indwelled in ordinary Christians, guiding us to agree, unless of course you are saying I am not a Christian. Or at least not as good as you are, and don’t deserve what you have. question; how many Christians do you agree with completely ? surely you can not disagree with a person who is indwelled by the same Holy guide as you. Or is this Holy guide fickle, he tells you one thing and your indwelled brethren, another. Let me answer my own question, no he does not, we are all left the same guide, it is known as “The Bible”
Laymond,
For once I can actually say that I agree with you!
But nothing you are saying refutes anything that Tim said.
Romans 8:9 and 1 Cor 6 are definitely personal applications of the communal truth — SINCE the Spirit of Christ dwells in the church, that same Spirit must dwell in every single member of the church. Otherwise, you aren’t part of the church. If you do not have the Spirit, you do not have God.
But the reason I’m glad you brought up your point is because it is Paul’s major idea — a point that we Westerners consistently miss in our drive to be lone rangers. The primary means of relating to God, of hearing the word, of understanding and working and believing, is in the context of community. No matter how beautiful a sunset, how deeply spiritual a restful solitude may be — the triune God is never more present with His people than when they gather together.
in HIS love,
nick
PS — in Matthew 18, it takes more than one because it isn’t talking about communing with God but about the community practicing self-discipline towards sinning members. One believer alone does not have the authority to decide the church’s response to unrepentant sin.
Laymond —
The Holy spirit doesn’t FORCE anyone to agree with anyone else — not even with God Himself.
“Love does not insist on its own way.” 1 Cor 13:5
Jesus’ words in Matthew 18:12-20 are echoed by Paul’s words to the Corinthians in 1 Cor 5:1-5 — Jesus is speaking of his authoritative presence among the disciples, and Paul is encouraging the Corinthians in the same way.
Laymond,
To me, that’s been the critical error in those that argue against indwelling, somehow thinking that indwelling means perfection, be it perfect knowledge or perfect behavior. It doesn’t mean either of those things. We are led by the Spirit; we’re not puppets. We still have within us the right to choose whether to follow the Spirit’s lead or follow our humanness (sarx in the Greek).
Grace and peace,
Tim
Oh, I forgot to respond to the part about Matthew 18:20… let’s not add to what Jesus said. He’s saying it doesn’t take the whole community to be able to act with his power and authority (1 Cor 5:4); even if there are only two (the one being reprimanded and the one correcting him), Jesus is there.
We can’t add to it by saying, “Where there is only one, I’m not there.” That’s not in the text.
Grace and peace,
Tim
I don’t think the context of Matthew 18 will allow us to say that the “one being reprimanded and the one correcting him” constitute the “two or three together.” It is doubtful that the one being corrected is there ‘in Jesus’ name’ (ie, operating through his authority), and obviously they are not in agreement, or there would be no reason for condemnation.
Definitely it doesn’t take the whole community — but authoritative condemnation cannot be exercised without the involvement of the community.
Nick,
I stand corrected. Having encouraged a reading of the context, I failed to do so myself. (In my mind, I skipped verses 18 and 19)
I still think the emphasis is not on establishing a quorum, it’s a comment on the fact that even if there are very few involved, the Lord is present. And I think it’s wrong to read the text to say that Jesus is not present with believers unless they are in the company of other believers.
Grace and peace,
Tim
Oh, I definitely agree with both of those assertions, Tim. Completely. This is one of those difficult concepts for me to get my mind around — I try to affirm it without expecting ever to really grasp it. So it is hard to talk about without giving one impression or the other, when I really mean both.
When I read Eph 1 and took into account that Paul is not talking about ME per se, but US — it really affected how I look at gatherings of Christians anywhere anytime. So much more of the presence language in the NT is addressed to the gathering than to the individual — I didn’t realize that until recently — it has even affected how I read Hebrews 10! :)
Tim, I see where you have changed from a definitive statement to “I think” at least you show some agreement with Nick, so I guess you are both indwelled by this “Spirit of suggestions” .
Tim said “We still have within us the right to choose whether to follow the Spirit’s lead”
question Tim, if one chooses not to follow the spirit of Christ, do they remain a Christian and more specifically, do they remain indwelled?
The indwelled spirit I read about in John, does not say here is a suggestion, take it or leave it, it doesn’t matter, you will still be my apostle.
Laymond,
Thinking is not a bad thing. :-) Nor is humility when discussing Scriptural interpretation.
Do I understand you to be saying that the promises made to the apostles (and only to the apostles) in John 14-16 mean that they were from then on in perfect agreement about everything? Does your understanding of indwelling also mean that they were perfect in behavior?
My understanding of God living in us leads me to none of those thoughts. Paul writes the Galatians and urges them to walk in step with the Spirit. He writes the Romans and tells them that if the Spirit/the Spirit of God/Christ/the Spirit of Christ/the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead doesn’t live in us, we don’t belong to Christ. [Note the singular “if anyone”] Yet he still urges them to live according to the Spirit, not the flesh.
God living in us doesn’t give us perfect knowledge, perfect agreement, or perfect unity. As I said, that is a straw man set up by those that would deny the fact that God has promised to live in us. The Bible never says that.
Grace and peace,
Tim
“Do I understand you to be saying that the promises made to the apostles (and only to the apostles) in John 14-16 mean that they were from then on in perfect agreement about everything?”
Well maybe I take to much for granted but everything the “Spirit of truth” passed on should not differ from one apostle to the other (in my opinion, the truth does not change)
Jn:14:26: But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
I take Jesus at his word, and he pretty much repeated the same thing exactly one chapter later.
Jn:15:26: But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:
All I was saying is why would the same spirit who indwells two Christians lead them in different ways?
It all goes back to what I wrote before: we’re not puppets. The Spirit leads the same way; men follow imperfectly. That’s why the indwelled apostle Peter could need to be confronted by the indwelled apostle Paul. That’s why the church in Jerusalem had flaws. It’s why Christians aren’t perfect, even though we have the promise that God lives in us.
If Christ does not live in us, we do not belong to Christ. Romans 8 is pretty plain. We have God’s Spirit, Christ’s Spirit living in us, or we aren’t of Christ.
Grace and peace,
Tim
Tim said; “God living in us doesn’t give us perfect knowledge, perfect agreement, or perfect unity.”
Tim, tell me again, the purpose of this indwelled spirit
I understand the purpose of the bible/ the word.
I know I am way off base here, but if I had to choose Peter or Paul, I would pick the one Jesus trusted with the keys.
Luckily, you don’t have to choose between Peter and Paul. It’s a package deal. We accept all of the apostles or none at all.
Of course, since you were so adamant about us being Gentiles and having nothing to do with Jewish heritage, I would have thought you’d choose the man Jesus chose as apostle to the Gentiles! ;-)
I’ll trust in your reading skills to go back and read the previous posts about what the Spirit does in our lives. He is not a substitute for the Word, nor can the Word replace Him. Again, God doesn’t make us choose between the two.
Grace and peace,
Tim
Laymond says, “I understand the purpose of the bible/ the word.”
What is that purpose? Why can men and women who’ve read the Bible for decades still disagree, if they possess the word of Truth?
Reading the Bible and only the Bible every day from now till the day I die will not give me perfect knowledge, perfect agreement (even with TIM, much less with Laymond :) ), or perfect unity.
It will “equip me for every good work” (there’s that PAUL again, what does he know?), it will make me “wise unto salvation”. But it does not force.
You used the right word earlier, Laymond, but you don’t seem to understand the concept behind it — GUIDE into agreement. Some folks have a lot farther to go than others on the path to agreement, so of course it won’t happen instantaneously whenever two Christians talk about a spiritual subject.