So what would a Christian nation look like?
Simply put, it would be a nation that in all its dealings, in everything that it was, tried to be like Christ.
Some specifics:
- Such a nation would not retaliate when wronged.
- Such a nation would not seek increased prosperity, but increased faithfulness.
- Such a nation would have give emphasis to taking care of those who needed it most.
- Such a nation would put the interest of other nations ahead of their own.
- Such a nation would return all territories and possessions that had been taken from other nations.
I could go on, but I guess you get the point. As others have pointed out, such a nation does exist. It is described in 1 Peter 2:9.
I don’t think that geopolitical nations of this world can be Christian. Individuals are Christians; nations aren’t. The nations of this world will one day belong to our God; for now, they are under Satan’s control, subject to his deception. We long for the day the revolution is complete, when governments are overthrown by the kingdom of God, where men pledge allegiance only to the Christian nation. That day is coming. Until then, we reside as ambassadors of a Christian nation, living in a kingdom of this world.
Tim, do you mean to say a true Christian Nation would look something like the “Far left liberal Democrats”. I agree they stand against just about everything you named, and the ” Christian Right” pokes fun at them for it.
Call them “tree huggers” because they want to protect the environment, call them cowards, because they do not retaliate, Call them pacifist because they care for more than their self, and yes some even want to give back what was taken from others.
but they are the exception, the rest of us have to many reasons not to live like Christ. When we settle down on a piece of God’s earth we begin to believe we own it, we worked hard and bought it, but from who? Does God not still own it? Did God start this land rush when he gave ownership of land to the Jewish Nation? I don’t know. We have come to believe we have a right to claim God’s earth, even a right to claim salvation, on our own terms.
I have always felt “Christian Nation” is a misnomer. I don’t believe there has ever been one. A moral nation – a nation that follows some of what Christ taught is as close as we can ever get.
Tim,
Alexander Campbell comes to the same conclusions :http://www.mun.ca/rels/restmov/texts/acampbell/ac2.html
Just wanted to give you the link to the material. Still studing this issue for myself, so I will refrain from comment.
Thank you,
Steve Valentine
Laymond: I don’t think any earthly nation could put Jesus’ principles into practice and last very long.
Jeanne and Steve: Thanks for the comments. I’ll have to look at Campbell’s article when I have a chance.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Tim,
Has there ever been a nation under God? Was Israel in the OT ever such a nation. I can argue either way.
Did Jesus retaliate against those in the temple area? We know He did. Is there ever a point for us to retaliate? I think there is. Paul said, “If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.” Rom. 12:18 It seems Paul understands there may com a time to retaliate.
Is seeking prosperity wrong? I thought it was the LOVE of money.
Our nation is not perfect but our nation gives more to the poor of this world than any other and has for years. Can we do better? Of course. Let us strive for that. More was done to fight aids in Africa during Bush’s years than under any other president.
And as far as giving back territories and so forth, do you mean like the Philipines? Cuba? Mexico?
How many nations when they defeat one in war rebuild that nation (Germany and Japan)?
As far as putting other nations interest ahead of their own, do you do this with your family? Did not Paul say that one that does not care for his own is worse than an infidel?
The fact that no nation is perfect in and of itself does not mean it cannot be Christian in some sense or another.
If we were to convert every soul in the USA would we then be Christian?
Thanks for considering my thoughts Tim. You are a good brother.
Gerry
Tim,
Fantastic post. Glad i found your blog.
–Guy
Gerry,
OT Israel had its moments as a god-following nation. A lot depended on the leader in charge.
Jesus didn’t retaliate because of being wronged personally. Nor did he retaliate with personal violence (I don’t think he hit people with the whips; those were made to drive the animals). Not being at peace with someone has nothing to do with our retaliating against them. Peace is lost if the other decides to act as my enemy, even if I don’t retaliate.
“People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction.” (1Timothy 6:9)
Yes, a Christian nation would return the land to Mexico, to Cuba, etc. What about all the treaties with the Native Americans? What would a Christian nation have done regarding those?
Gerry, I too appreciate your willingness to dialog. I was beginning to think that no one would stand up for this point of view.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Tim,
Just a few thoughts here.
Your point about Israel could also be said of the USA.
The money changers in the temple might disagree with you as to the intentions of Jesus.
And being rich and being prosperous are not exactly the same thing.
Being a quarter Cherokee I wouldn’t mind some of my ancestors land back. But as a Christian I do not think that demand would be proper.
Tim, I am not certain what my position is. I am simply working thru this topic as with others.
Thanks and God bless,
Gerry
But if we want to talk about history, I’d have to say that, most of the time, there were major issues that were going on that disqualify this country (and any country) from being called Christian, from the initial rebellion against government, to the slave trade, to the genocide of native peoples, to the open imperialism of the nineteenth century, to the years of racism, to…
None of these are minor points. These are major points of our country’s DNA; look at the justifications that men like Thomas Jefferson wrote for most of the above.
Maybe “prosperity” isn’t the word I want, but a quest for material gain and material well-being has led the U.S. (and other similar powers) to take advantage of weaker nations. We now lead a lifestyle that is not sustainable, that is, that the planet couldn’t sustain if every person in the world tried to live like us. And trying to get rich is a basic American value.
There is much good in the United States. I do think that our culture has been trained to be generous, to help those who need help, to stand up for justice, etc. Unfortunately, we haven’t been taught to apply that to a world scale. Our history in Latin America is shameful. In recent years alone, we have helped install and support dictators who killed thousands, men not unlike Saddam Hussein; we supported them because they were “anti-Communist.”
OK, I’m lapsing into bashing again. I’ll just say that our doing the right thing during WWII and the years following doesn’t justify the other 200+ years when we were generally on the wrong side of things. We treat one another well; it’s the other countries and other peoples that we typically give the shaft.
But the U.S. does what is best for the U.S., which is what nations of this world do. They aren’t Christian nor should they be expected to be. People are Christians; nations, by their nature, aren’t.
I personally believe our founders based our constitution and bill of rights on natural law. There is much evidence for this. I will not say we are a Christian nation, but certain principles were established as ideals. We have in many ways gone away from those principles.
I think there is a sad misconception of our history. It has been severely distorted by those with an agenda. We are not getting the correct history in many cases.
Since when was overthowing an evil government against God’s decrees. Show me where the bible is against slavery. Prosperity is not a sin. Not everything we have done as a nation is along that which you call Christian. But, show me one person that is able to uphold the law perfectly. There is none but Jesus.
If you are looking towards “far left liberal Democrats” to accomplish what you have said, then you must ignore many other issues. Abortion, Homosexuality, stealing, lies, and the list goes on.
I do not have enough space or time to write all I could say on these issues.
I’m sorry you felt embarrassed to leave your name. That never helps dialog. In any case, let me say at first that I’m not looking to any political outlook, political party or manmade movement to solve problems. I’m apolitical. Don’t believe any politician can do what needs to be done in this world.
Since when is overthrowing an evil government against God’s decrees? Look at the Roman government that Christians were told to obey. You can’t get much more evil than that. England was NOTHING compared to them.
Prosperity is not a sin. Materialism is. The pursuit of riches is. God may bless a man with wealth, but it’s a far different thing to build a society around the pursuit of wealth.
We weren’t called to establish God’s kingdom through a political system. Jesus’ kingdom isn’t of this world. Our ways are not worldly ways. I pray that we can learn that.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Since when is slavery a sin? The slave trade that existed in the U.S. was sinful on many levels. It’s nothing like slavery as permitted under the old law.
I could have just as easily called myself Bob and nobody would be the wiser.
God sets up nations and takes them down. So obviously God had His hand in the Revolution. Based upon your thoughts on this issue, I would speculate that you have no liking for the military? Do we obey a Government that goes against the will of God? If this is the case then every missionary in The USSR during the cold war was sinning in doing so, according to this thought. I believe there is a time for retaliation against such things. This happened during our Revolution.
I do not care if someone is apolitical. That is fine. Do you even vote at that point though? What decides how you vote if you do? You must have a standard. I agree that we are not called to build God’s Kingdom through a political system. But, does this mean that we vote for someone that is immoral?
On slavery, yes the way in which slavery was brought to the states was immoral, so was the way in which many held their slaves. But, again others treated their slaves better than some employers treat employees today.
Materialism and greed are absolutely sins, yes. Let’s not put everyone that is rich in the same boat. Not everyone that labels themselves a s a Christian are really a Christian either.
I am not trying to argue that our nation is a Christian nation. I will argue though that we were built around Natural Law, God’s Laws. Not everyone has followed these. Regardless of political movement or thought, I think we need to vote for the most moral people into office we can find. I think we need to push for the most moral system we can have. My conscience will not let me do otherwise.
Well “Bob,” I would hope that you wouldn’t lie about your name during a Christian discussion.
We have to think about that reasoning a bit. If God sets up nations and takes them down, what right do Christians have to be a part of taking down any nation? Again, look at what the Roman empire was. Look at the book of Revelation. That was the perfect moment for God to say “Your Christian duty is to rebel against this evil government.” Some say that’s because there weren’t enough Christians to fight the Romans; have those people read the story of Gideon? Of Jonathan and his shield bearer? Does God need a certain number of people to do something? No, armed rebellion is not part of what the New Testament teaches.
No, I no longer vote. My kingdom named its King a long time ago.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Sorry to have even got into this discussion. I am also sorry that my family and friends have fought for your freedom to say all you have said and you are thankless by not taking the time to vote. I guess that is your option. I hope you do not complain about anything your Government forces you to do.
I can see how emotions can make people feel like that. I respect the men who have chosen to fight for their country. I can be appreciative even if I don’t think it was the right way to do things. My family and friends have also fought; I lost an uncle in war.
It’s interesting to read church history and see that early Christians received similar criticism for not actively supporting the Roman government, the very government that provided them the peace, the security, the roads, etc. to be able to evangelize. It’s a little scary that we don’t get criticized more.
Making a conscious decision to not vote is not about not being willing to take the time, at least not in the way you seem to mean it. (Feel free to correct me if I misunderstood you) I do worry greatly about the amount of time Christians spend on politics, so in that sense I am unwilling to take the time.
I’m not sure if you have interest in continuing this discussion, but I’ll ask if you think I should travel to Argentina and vote in the next presidential election there. I hold residence, and it looks like the government is going to allow resident foreigners to vote. If voting is my Christian duty, should I travel there and vote? Or is it not worth my “taking the time”?
Many governments of this world force me to do many things (I travel a lot). That’s part of what they do. I guess I will complain about their policies, but you’re right, as a Christian, I probably shouldn’t complain.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer