MMLJBC. I hadn’t even heard those initials strung together until recently. For those who don’t know, it stands for Matthew Mark Luke John Before Cross. It’s used by those who teach, as one book puts it, “Jesus’ public ministry was nailed to the cross.” Sure, read that statement again. The basic idea is that Christians shouldn’t worry about what Jesus’ taught; only what is contained from Acts 2 through Revelation 22 applies to us as “New Covenant Law.”
Sometimes a teaching is so far-fetched that it’s hard to know where to begin to refute it. I’ll lay out some basic principles, and if any of my thousands of faithful readers want any further clarification, I’ll offer it.
- The “New Covenant Law” is nothing like the Law of Moses, that is, it is not a set of ordinances and regulations spelled out in legislative passages. The heart of the two covenants is the same.
- The gospels are not biographies of Jesus nor are they documents composed out of a sense of historical curiosity. They are documents of the early church, written by Christians, for Christians. They do not compete with the teachings of the apostles; they are teachings of the apostles. If you fail to grasp that fact, you will never read the gospels correctly.
- As followers of Christ, we follow the teachings of Christ. That should be obvious. Admittedly, those who want to turn the New Testament into a legal code have problems with that concept, wanting to take this revelation of God’s will and turn it into legislation. Since it is not legislation, it naturally does not fit well within those confines. Try this simple exercise: read Numbers 35. Now find a chapter in the New Testament that resembles the language of Numbers 35. Numbers 35 is legal code. It was intended to be legal code. Which part of the New Testament looks like legal code to you? Which part of Jesus’ teachings seems to be legal code?
I’ll stop there for now. Let me sum it up this way: the gospels form an important part of the revelation that God gave to the apostles to pass on to us. Let’s not neglect God’s generous gift to us.
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So Your Saying Jesus Did Not Mean What He Said Before The Cross In John 6:38 I Did Not Come To Do My Will. Or John 7:16 My Doctrine Is Not Mine. According To You Jesus Is Not Fulfilling The Law, But Teaching His New Testament Doctrine Before The Cross. Mathew 5:17-18 Mathew 7:12 Where Did Jesus Ever Say He Was Teaching His New Testament Doctrine Before The Cross Not Doing His Will, Or Teaching His Doctrine? You Traditionalist Beat All I Ever Seen When It Comes To Rightly Dividing The Word Of Truth By The Covenants. Your Batting A Great Big Zero. Mathew 28:18 Acts 1:1-3 It Was After The Cross Jesus Taught All His New Covenant Truth. Folks Mathew-John Describing Jesus Before The Cross Is Not The Apostles Doctrine Acts 2-Revelation 22 Is. Acts 2:42. The devil Sure Has You Fooled Hook Line And Stinker.
Wow, Mickey. What can I say? With an attitude like that, I doubt you’ll listen to anything that doesn’t fit what you already believe.
Still, we can try and have a discussion. I’ll start with a question: Why would John sit down about half a century after the cross and record Jesus’ teachings, if they were merely a historical curiosity? I’m willing to listen and consider your explanation.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
P.S.—I’m curious how I got the label “traditionalist” on that one. What you’re saying is the traditional teaching I encounter time and again in churches of Christ.
OK, I changed my mind… let’s go through the accusations:
Did Jesus not really mean that he didn’t come to do his own will? Not sure what that has to do with your point, but I’ll say that I do believe that Jesus came to do the will of his Father.
Did Jesus not mean it when he said his doctrine wasn’t his? I believe that all of Jesus’ teachings, both before and after the cross, came from his Father.
“According To You Jesus Is Not Fulfilling The Law, But Teaching His New Testament Doctrine Before The Cross” Never said that. The two aren’t mutually exclusive. Jesus could keep the Law while still teaching the doctrine of the Kingdom.
Where Did Jesus Ever Say He Was Teaching His New Testament Doctrine Before The Cross Not Doing His Will, Or Teaching His Doctrine? Among other places, John 14-15, where he talks about “keeping my commands.”
From there, you merely have unproven assertions and insults.
Hope this helps.
Hi Mr Archer
Why Was Mathew-John Written During The New Testament Age? Simple To Show The Closing Of The Mosaic Age. They Show Jesus As The Messiah To Israel Only They Show Jesus Saving Jews Still Under The Law Galatians 4:4-5 Mathew 1:21 Mathew 19″16-20 Luke 23:42-43 How In The Name Of Comon Sense Could Malachi Be The Last Book Of The Old Testament, When Jesus Taught It And Ended It At His Death, That Is Insanity To Say The Least.Your Dead Wrong On Jesus Always Doing His Fathers Will After The Cross All Authority Was Given To Jesus After Not Before The Cross To Do HIS WILL. Mathew 28:18 Acts 1:1-3 Jesus Here Not Before The Cross Teaching All His New Testament Will. 2 John 9-11 Jesus Was Not The Head Of His Church Before The Cross, He Was The Messiah To Israel Only. Mathew 10:5-6 Mathew 15:24. No Gentile Salvation Before The Cross. Amos 3:2 John 4:22 Ephesians 2:11-12. John 1:29 Jesus Took The Sins Of Israel Only Before The Cross Away In The Old Covenant World Of Israel. John 3:16 Talking About Whosoever In Israel Only. Read Exodus 31:15. Your Teaching A Long Dead Traditional Heresy That Has Been Started By The devil And The Corrupt Roman Catholic Church, By The False Mis Placed Title Page Of 1486 And Many Have Bought The devils Lie. When Will You Brethren Ever Get It? John 1:17 These Books Written After The Cross John Proving Grace And Truth Were After The Cross Not Before The Cross. Jesus Never Ever Used The Word Grace Before The Cross, And Don’t Give Me It Was Implied Non Sense. Try To Harmonize John 7:16 With 2 John 9-11 It Cannot Be Done Sire. I Hope This Helps, But By All Means I Have Much More If You Need It.
Mickey
God bless you Mickey. We definitely don’t see eye to eye on this.
You Bet We Do Not Agree. I Teach Gods Word By The Covenants, And You Go From One Covenant To Another Binding Old Testament Faith On Christians. You Asked Me Some Questions, And I Answered Them. Are You Just Going To Give Up Or Try In Vain To Prove The Old Testament Gospels Of Mathew, Mark, Luke, And John Are New Testament Doctrine.Why Is It When You Traditional Teaching Brethren When Your Backs Are Against The Wall And Cannot Refute Jesus Real New Covenant Truth Just Quit Trying. I Know Where I Stand And Can Back Up Everything I Say. Jesus Was An Old Testament Prophet, The Last One Sent To Israel To Redeem (Or Save Those Jews Still Under The Law) Galatians 4:4-5 Mathew 1:21 I Just Cannot Believe You Folks Cannot See This Clear Truth Right In Front Of Your Eyes. In John 14-15 Jesus Told Israel To Keep The Law That Was Jesus Commandments In A Nut Shell, And You Falsely Claim New Testament. Where On Earth Do You Come Up With That One Sir? Jesus Was The Vine Israel Was The Natural Branches At That Time. Mathew 5:17-18 Mathew 7:12. Jesus Was The Way Under The Law Of Moses, The Truth Under The Law Of Moses, And The Way Of Life Under That Old Covenant, As A Minister Of The Circumcision. Romans 15:8 King James Version.John 14:21 He In Israel Who Keeps Jesus Old Testament Commands Are Those Who Love Him. Tell Me Mr. Archer How Can A Jew Still Under The Law Following Jesus Under The Law Being Redeemed Under The Law Obey New Testament Commands While Still Under The Law? Ephesians 3:3-5 Make It Quite Clear The New Covenant Or Testament Kingdom Was A Mystery In Other Ages, And Was Not Made Known Unto The Sons Of Men. John 3:3-6 Did Nicodemus Know How To Be Born Again Here? No Way, And Jesus Did Not Reveal New Covenant Doctrine Here, It Was A Short Range Prophesy To Israel Telling Them There Fleshly Born Into That Old Testament Kingdom Birth Will Not Cut It This Side Of The Cross. Israel Must Be Spiritually Born Again In Water Baptism, And Spiritually Converted From The Law Of Moses Jesus Taught Before The Cross, To Jesus New Testament Kingdom After The Cross. Remember The Jews Lost There Old Testament Kingdom After Jesus Death. Mathew 21:43. Lets Use Some Comon Sense Here. If Mathew 4:23 Is The Gospel Of The Kingdom, And Israel Is Still Under There Old Covenant Kingdom Here, How Could It Be A New Testament Kingdom Gospel, When It Does Not arrive Until Acts 2? Peter Gets To Preach The First New Testament Kingdom Gospel, Mr. Archer. Show Me Any New Testament Doctrine In Mathew chapters 5-7 I Challenge You To Do That, And I Will Clearly Show You It Is All The Law Of Moses, Just Like Jesus Clearly Told You. Mathew 5:17-18 Mathew 7:12. Don’t Give Up Now Mr. archer I Have More New Covenant Truth To Lay Out For You. Lets See If You Can Back Up Your Heresy. I Tell You Clearly Folks Mathew-John Before The Cross Is 100 Percent Old Testament. That Is What The Scriptures Teach, And You Better Believe God Demands That Is What We Better Teach Or Else We Will Be Lost. Galatians 1:6-9.Mathew-John Before The Cross Is Another Gospel.Only For The Jews Still Under The Law. I Await Your Rebuttal Mr. Archer.
Yes, Mickey, you’ve made your attitude clear. According to you, you teach God’s Word while I don’t believe what Jesus said. According to you, please note.
You didn’t answer my question, but that’s okay. Do you seriously expect me to try and sift through the babble of words you’ve written to find your points and answer them one by one? Learn to write, and we can have a discussion. In English, we capitalize the first word in a sentence. We use punctuation. We use paragraphs. All of this aids communication.
This is my last reply. You can insult me again, should you care to, but that’s how it is. A few quick points:
(1) The apostles were to teach what Jesus had taught them. (Matthew 28:19-20) They did, partly by recording Jesus’ teachings in the Gospels.
(2) The Gospels teach how we are to live in the Kingdom of Heaven. I choose to live as a citizen of that Kingdom.
(3) The Gospels make specific reference to church practice (ex. Matthew 18:17).
(4) There is NOT ONE statement in all of the New Testament that says that Jesus’ teachings were only for the Jews and not for his followers.
I’m not giving up, just trying to follow Paul’s instructions:
“Don’t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels. And the Lord’s servant must not quarrel; instead, he must be kind to everyone, able to teach, not resentful. Those who oppose him he must gently instruct, in the hope that God will grant them repentance leading them to a knowledge of the truth, and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.” (2 Timothy 2:23–26)
I wish you blessings. I wish you grace. I wish you peace.
Good day, sir.
Tim
Where did I ever insult You sir? I always capitalize My first letters it is just a habit I have. I have a passion for the new covenant truth of Jesus and hate all false doctrine. I am to refute those that oppose it. Titus 1:9-10 Paul was talking about Foolish Quarrels.Titus 3:9 Refuting false doctrine is a Heaven and Hell issue, not foolishness Mr. Archer.
Here is the answers to Your questions .
1.Mathew 28:19-20 Yes the Apostles were to teach what Jesus taught them after the Cross. Acts 1:1-3, Not Before The Cross. Mathew 28 Mark 16 Luke 24 John 20-21 Acts 1 is the time period between the covenants where Jesus spent 40 days teaching all His new covenant doctrine.
2. The old testament gospels were telling Jews how to live under the old covenant kingdom they were still under.Mathew 4:23 Mathew 6:33 They were to seek old covenant righteousness since they were still under that old testament kingdom rule. Mathew 21:43 It was taken from them at Jesus death. Ephesians 3:3-5 No new testament doctrine was made known unto the sons of men in other ages. Mathew-John describing Jesus before the Cross is another age. Jesus only come to save Jews Under that Kingdom rule. Galatians 4:4-5 Mathew 1:21 Mathew 10:5-6 Mathew 15:24 Mathew 19:16-20 Luke 23:42-43 The Thief was saved under the old testament kingdom still in force, because Jesus new covenant kingdom was not there yet. You cannot have two kingdom laws going at the same time Mr. Archer That is false. Read Romans 10:1-6 Romans 3:19-21, No such thing as fulfilling the law and teaching new testament doctrine or principles under the same covenant. you either live by the law or new testament law of Liberty. James 1:25 James 2:12
3. Mathew 18:17 was not new testament doctrine Jesus was talking to Jewish Brethren, there was no Christian Brethren when Jesus told Israel to do these things. Acts 7:37-38 This was Gods Old Testament Church In The Wilderness King James Version. Once again You cannot be teaching two covenant Righteousness at the same time. Romans 10:1-6. Jesus told Israel while still under The old testament Kingdom How to handle old Covenant Church Business.
4. I agree that no where in the new covenant or testament was Jesus teaching for Jews only. Acts 2-Revelation 22 Although the new covenant gospel went to the Jews first Acts 2 then to the Gentiles Acts 10. Now Mathew-John describing Jesus before the Cross was only for the Jews. John 4:22 salvation was only for the Jews under old covenant faith. Galatians 4:4-5 Mathew 1:21 Mathew 10:5-6 Mathew 15:24. Show me Gentile Followers Of Jesus before the Cross. Show Me Gentile salvation before the Cross. Ephesians 2:11-12
Mr Archer I Never meant to come across as arrogant or insulting, but I hate false doctrine, and will refute it. Titus 1:9. Mathew-John before the Cross Is old testament, there is no way around it.
Mickey
Mickey,
are you saying, the word’s of Jesus before the cross does not include Christians? I was reading this post, I notice someone said you were being rude, though I didn’t get that impression. I been a Christian for many years, when I open my Bible it says “New Testament of Jesus Christ, that’s New Testament for Christians. to me, it looks like you want to limit God’s word, explain yourself more would you? Thanks
Albert
Hi Albert
Yes Many Traditional Brethren Always Assume My Rebuttals To There False Doctrine Is Harsh, But Paul Delt With The Same Things With His Former Old Testament Jews. Paul Was Really Concerned Over His fellow Jews Who After Obeying Jesus New Covenant Gospel Went Back Into Keeping The Old Law Of Moses.
I Know It Is Hard For Someone Like You To Except This Truth, Because You Have Been Traditionally Mis Lead By These Well Meaning Brethren Who Never Can Arrive At The Real Truth Of Jesus Christ. They Assume Like You Do That The New Testament Begins In Mathew 1 Because Of The Stupid Mis Placed Title Page Put There By The devil, And The Corrupt Roman Catholic Church In The Year Of 1486 To Throw Off The Protestant Movement. Look How Many Precious Souls Have bought The devils Lie.
Mark 1:1 Reads The Beginning Of The Gospel Of Jesus Christ The Son Of God. Many Poor Souls Assume You See Here Is Jesus Beginning His New Testament Gospel Here, But Nothing Could Be Farther From The Truth Sir. The Word Gospel Means Good News. The Question We All Must Ask Here Is Who Is This Good News Preached To In Mathew-John Describing Jesus Before The Cross. Read These Passages Prayerfully And Very Carefully Albert. Galatians 4:4-5 Jesus Was Born Under The Law Of Moses To Redeem (Save Those Jews Still Under The Law) Read Mathew 1:21 Jesus Will Save His People From There Sins. Question Albert Who Were Gods People Before The Cross? Obviously The Jews. Read Mathew 10:5-6 Jesus Clearly Told His Old Covenant 12 Apostles Don’t Go To The Samaritans Or Gentiles, But The Lost Sheep Of The House Of Israel. If Mathew-John Before The Cross Is New Testament Why No Going To Samaritans, Half Breed Jews, Or The Gentiles? Think About That Sir? Why Did Jesus Come For Jews Only Before The Cross. Mathew 15:24 Why Was Salvation Only Of The Jews Before The Cross Amos 3:2 John 4:22 Ephesians 2:11-12?
Another Thing To Question Albert Is If Mathew-John Before The Cross Is New Testament Doctrinal Gospel, Why No death, Burial, And Resurrection Being Preached Before The Cross, Because Paul Surely Declared The New Testament Gospel Was Jesus Death, Burial, and Resurrection 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 Now Notice In Luke 9:22 Jesus Prophesied Before The Cross What Would Happen To Him, But Did Not Preach His Death, Burial, And Resurrection Before The Cross.Many Folks Can’t Tell The Difference Between Prophesy And Doctrine. An Example Would Be Jeremiah 31:31-34 Here God Plainly Told The Jews He Would Make Another Covenant With Them, And Was Verified In Hebrews 8:8-13. Now Is Jeremiah 31:31-34 New Testament Or Prophesy? Is John 3:3-6 New Testament Doctrine Or Short Range Prophesy? Remember Before The Cross The New Covenant Doctrine Was A Mystery, And Was Not Made Know Unto The Sons Of Men In Other Ages? Ephesians 3:3-5 This Explains Why Nicodemus Did Not Have A Clue About What Jesus Prophesied To Him About The Begging Of The New Testament Age. Is Mathew 16:18 New Testament Doctrine, Or Another Short Range Prophesy? Was Jesus Church There During Jesus Earthly Ministry To The Jews? Read Mathew 18:17 Many Mis Understand This Old Testament Passage. Jesus Here Is Talking To Jewish Brethren Not Christian Brethren. It Was God The Fathers Old Testament Church Read Acts 7:37-38 King James Version. Think Here Acts 2 Is Where Jesus New Testament (Kingdom or Church) Began, So How Could Mathew 16:18 Be New Testament? How Bout Luke 23:15-20 Is This New Testament Doctrine, Or Once Again Another Short Range Prophesy? Remember It Was The Passover In Verse 15 Then Jesus Prophesies Of What It Will Be This Side Of The Cross. Don’t Believe That Non Sense Of Jesus Instituting The Lords Supper Here, How Foolish Would That Be Since He Had Not Even Died As Of Yet, And It Was Still The Passover, So No New Testament Doctrine In Force Here Sir.
Another Thing Very Few People Do Is Pay Attention To What Jesus really Sais Before The Cross. John 6 :38 Jesus Did Not Come To Do His New Testament Will Before The Cross Or Teach His New Testament Doctrine Before The Cross John 7:16. Notice After The Cross God The Father Gives All Authority To His Son Jesus Mathew 28:18, Notice After The Cross Jesus Spends 40 Days Teaching All His New Testament Doctrine Acts 1:1-3. In John 16:12-13 Jesus Told His Disciples He Had Many More Things To Teach Them, Meaning All His New Testament Doctrine Would Be Brought To There Remembrance, Not The Things He Taught Before The Cross, Since We Clearly Read That Was Only The Law Of Moses. Mathew 5:17-18 Mathew 7:12, And That Was Nailed To The Cross. Colossians 2:14 Jesus Not Malachi Or John The Baptist Is The End Of The Law Romans 10:4 Romans 7:4. Think About How In The Name Of Comon Sense Is Malachi The Last Old Testament Book, If Jesus Taught And Ended The Law With His earthly Ministry? Many Traditional Teaching Brethren Quickly Run To Luke 16:16 To In Vain Prove There Point, But Once Again They Come Up Dry Here To. This Passage Is Talking About Before The Cross The New Testament Kingdom Was Prophesied About, But Starting With John’s Old Covenant Ministry It Was Preached The New Covenant Kingdom Was At Hand, Not Here Yet, But At Hand. Mathew 3:2 Mathew 4:17. Notice Israel Was Commanded To Offer Old Testament Repentance Since They Were Still Under That Old Covenant Kingdom And That Gospel Mathew 4:23 Mathew 21:43, That Kingdom Was Taken From Them After Jesus Death, Not Before His Death, And You Can’t Have Two Kingdom Gospels Going Simultaneously. The New Testament Kingdom Gospel arrives In Acts 2 And Goes To Revelation 22 And Is Still In Force.
Notice Once Again Albert In Galatians 1:6-9 Paul An Inspired Man Of God, Not A Traditional Teaching Man sais Clearly We Are Not To Preach ANY OTHER GOSPEL Than The APOSTLES. Acts 2-Revelation 22. Well We Already Clearly See Mathew-John Describing Jesus Before The Cross Is Clearly Another Gospel, For Those Books Are For The Jews Salvation Only. Mathew 1:21 John 4:22 Mathew 10:5-6 Mathew 15:24 Mathew 19:16-20 Luke 23:42-43. No Gentile Had A Prayer Of Any Hope Before The Cross. Ephesians 2:11-12. John 1:17 Grace And New Covenant Truth Were Revealed After The Cross Not Before The Cross, Because Jesus Never Once Used The Word Grace Before The Cross. John 1:29 Jesus Took Only The Sins Of Israel Away Before The Cross. John 3:16 God So Loved(Past Tense) Old Covenant Israel That Who Soever In Israel Only Under That Old Covenant. Exodus 31:15 May Have Eternal Life. Romans 3:19-21 Romans 10:1-6 John 10:10 Jesus Came That They (Israel) would Have Life And Have It Abundantly Since Jesus Only Came For Israel Only Before The Cross. Mathew 15:24.
Albert It Is High Time To Wake Up And Smell The Covenants You Cannot Follow Jesus In Two Different Covenant Ages. Some One Might Ask, Well What About 1 John 2:6. I Would Say Read 1 Peter 2:21-23 And You Will Have Your Covenant Answer.We Are Not Told To Follow Jesus Back Before The Cross We Are Commanded To Follow His Example Of Non Retaliation. You Cannot Harmonize John 7:16 With 2 John 9-11 It Is Impossible, And No Jesus Did Not Always Do The Will Of His Father, Since After The Cross Jesus Is The Head Of His New Covenant Kingdom, And You Can’t Be The Head Of A Kingdom Without Doing Your Own Will Period. I Sure Hope This Helps You Albert, And Thanks For Reading My Comments.
Mickey
Mickey,
as I stated, I see you are very passionate in what you believe. I have been a member of the Church of Christ for many years, but have never heard of this kind of teaching. I am concerned very much so, reading what you posted, you must give me some time to really eye through and put it together. Thank you Tim for this site! I think Mickey needs to Understand, I was never told this, I was never taught this, so it’s hard to slam someone right off the bat Like it sounded to Tim. Let thank Tim for his site! I have seen a lot of changes in the church through the years, but Never this teaching. God Bless us All on this study.
Hi Albert,
Mickey’s dispensational teaching is the old Jule Miller filmstrip doctrine, which was very common in the churches of Christ in the 50 and 60. I’ll admit that I reacted strongly to being told that I didn’t believe what Scripture said, that my teaching is the work of Satan in my life, being called a traditionalist (?) for opposing the traditional doctrine, and being flooded with proof texts completely devoid of context.
For the reasons I mentioned in the post, I consider this doctrine completely inadequate for understanding the New Testament. It’s a law-based approach to a book of grace.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
OK, since Albert is interested, we’ll go into this a bit more. Let’s say that Mickey is right, that the gospels were written merely to show the closing of the Mosaic age. That would explain one of them being written. Maybe two, if the authors were unaware of one another. (though the interdependence between the synoptics suggest that they WERE aware of the others)
Let’s look at Luke. He admits that he’s seen other gospels, yet feels the need to write another one. Why? If we’re merely closing at the Mosaic dispensation, one gospel would be sufficient.
However, what if we took the gospels for what they are: teaching documents for the church. Luke looked at what was there and saw that certain elements of Jesus’ life and teaching weren’t there, elements that were useful for the churches that Luke was working with. He wrote, emphasizing the inclusiveness of the gospel, the social aspects of the gospel, etc., because that’s what the churches he was working with needed.
When we view the New Testament merely as a constitution or a law book, we have little use for Jesus’ life and teachings. When we recognize that our goal is to be made over into the image of Jesus, we realize that we need to learn all we can about what he said and what he did.
Grace and peace,
Tim
Hi Once Again Albert
Thank You So Much For Showing An Interest In The Things I Have Posted.
I Can Understand Your Need To Take Some Time With All Of This, And Please Do.
As You Can See From Mr. Archers Previous Post The Reason I Called Him A Traditionalist Is Because He Teaches What All Brethren Who Have Been Deceived With These Books Teach, It Was Not Meant For Insults, Just Facts Is All. Let Me Try To Explain Once Again To You, And Mr. Archer As Well.
Mr Archer Falsely Believes That Even If I Was Right Only One Or Two At Most Of Those Old Testament Gospels Would Be Needed To Be Recorded. Lets See About That. Notice Verses 3 And 4 Of John Chapter 1 John Is Writing Things In Consecutive Order As The Events Are Recorded Under The Law Showing The Truth About What They Have Been Taught.Then He Goes On Recording The Events Under That Old Covenant. Verses-26-33 Notice Verse 33 Has Another Short Range Prophesy About Jesus New Testament Kingdom That Will Never End. We See Mathew 16:18 Another Short Range Prophesy About Jesus New Testament Church. John 3:3-6 Prophesies About Jews Born Again This Side Of The Cross, But All These Old Covenant Prophesies Are Still A Mystery In Other Ages. Mathew-John Before The Cross Was Another Age. We See Different Things Mentioned In These Old Testament Gospels, Not Mentioned In The Other Books, Such As John 3:16 Probably The Single Most Mis Understood Old Testament Passage In The Bible.Luke Shows Both The Mention Of The Passover, And Jesus Old Testament Short Range Prophesy About The Lords Supper. Luke 22:15-20 Notice Mathew 26:26-29 Notice Mathew Does Not Mention The Passover And Many Traditional Teaching Brethren Run To This Passage To Prove The Lords Supper Was Instituted Here Which Is False, It Was Again Prophesied About. You See Now Why There Were 4 Persons Writing From There Own Perspectives Although They Were Still Guided By The Holy Spirit To Write There Versions Of Jesus Under The Law Of Moses.
Now Lets Go To Acts 1 Where We Read Luke Mentions In Verse 1 He Composed All Jesus Began To Do And Teach, Then In Verse 3 We See After His Resurrection His Convincing Proofs He Appeared To His Chosen Apostles To Teach Them All Of His New Testament Doctrine, As He Will Soon Be The Head, The Boss The Instructor Of His Own Personal Will Or Doctrine, Which Before The Cross He Already Said He Did Not Do. John 6:38 John 7:16 Verses 2 John 9-11. This Is Where Traditional Teaching Brethren Mess Up Big Time Albert. They Want To Throw All Of Jesus Old Testament Teaching Before The Cross In Will All He Taught After The Cross. This Is A Terrible Error And A Damnable Heresy.Mathew 28:18 All Authority Was Not Given To Jesus Before The Cross, He Taught The Law With all Authority Given Him By God The Father.Mathew 7:29 John 5:30. After The Cross Jesus Did Not Have To Seek His Own Will, Because He Did His Own By The Authority Passed On To Him By God The Father. Big Difference There Albert. Read Hebrews 1:1-2 Notice Verse 1 Sais God In Other Ages Spoke To His People By The Prophets Before The Cross.Read Deuteronomy 18:18 Acts 3:22-25 Notice Jesus Before The Cross Was A Prophet, The Last Old Testament Prophet Sent To Israel, And Whosoever In Israel Before The Cross Who Did Not Heed That Prophet (Jesus) Would Under That Covenant Be Destroyed Among The People Of Israel. John 3:16 Exodus 31:15. You Must Understand These Things Albert It Is A Heaven A Hell Issue.
Now Albert You Noticed Mr. Archer Say Clearly That If I Was Right, There Would Be No Need Of All 4 Books Being Written To Show Jesus Life, Just One Or Two At The Most. Well I Clearly Showed He Was Wrong There By Clearly Showing All 4 Authors Of Those Old Testament Gospels Had Showed Different Things Jesus Taught And Prophesied About Under That Old Law. I Would Ask Mr. Archer Why Is There A Need For 23 Books In The New Testament, Would Not 1 Or 2 At The Most Be All We Need To Understand What Jesus Wants Of Us This Side Of The Cross? Can You Not See The Foolishness Of This Albert? Mr. Archer Has The Sadly Mistaken Assumption That Those 4 Old Testament Gospels Have To Be New Testament Doctrine Because There Would Be No Need Of All 4 Authors Writing About The Law Of Moses Only About Jesus Life, Because To Him, Not God, But Him That Would Make No Sense At All. Because They Are Referred To In The Plural As Gospels There Must Be New Testament Something In There. Well Albert In Any Of These 4 Old Testament Gospels Did Jesus Ever Preach His death, Burial, And Resurrection In Any Of Them? No Prophesy References Mr Albert I Want Jesus Preaching His Death, Burial, And Resurrection Before The Cross? You Will Find No Such Passage In Any Of The 4 Old Covenant Gospels. They Sure Preached Jesus Death, Burial, And Resurrection After The Cross. 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 1 Corinthians 1:23 To The Jews After The Cross A Stumbling Block. To The Gentiles Foolishness. Now Since Jesus Never Preached This Before The Cross, Where Does That Leave Our Traditional Teaching Brethren Preaching Old Testament Jesus As A Minster Of The Circumcision Before The Cross Born Under The Law To Redeem Those Under The Law. Romans 15:8 King James Version. Galatians 4:4-5 Preaching Jesus Not Doing His Will, Not The Head Of His New Covenant Church, Or Teaching His New Covenant Doctrine, But Only The Law Of Moses? John 7:16 Mathew 5:17-18 Mathew 7:12 Preaching Another Gospel Than The Apostles Acts 2:42 Galatians 1:6-9 Not Abiding In Jesus New Covenant Doctrine After The Cross. 2 John 9-11 Verses Before The Cross Not Jesus Doctrine John 7:16?
Can You not Clearly See Where I Am Coming From Here Albert? Mr. Archer Has Absolutely Failed In His Attempt To Show Us Any Where Jesus Taught Any Thing New Testament Wise Before The Cross, Yet He Gets Angry With Me Because I Am Passionate About Jesus New Covenant Truth, And Thinks I Am Ignorant In Gods Word. Well From The Overwhelming Scriptural Proof I Presented Can You Refute Me, Since Mr. Archer Refuses To Albert? I Know I Am Right, Not Because Of Being Arrogant, But Because The Scriptures I Presented Are Proof Positive I Am Right. Hope This Helps Albert, And Yes Thanks For This Discussion Forum To Present Our Sides Of The Scriptures Mr. Archer.
Mickey
Sorry I Am Posting Twice, But I Forgot A Very Important Issue Tim Mentioned, And I Forgot To respond To It.
Tim Mentions Law Verses Grace, That To Confuses Very Many Folks So I Will Show You This Issue As Well.
John 1:17 The Law Came By Moses, But Grace And New Covenant Truth Were Realized Through Jesus Christ.
Is Tim Trying To Say With His Law Verses Grace, That The New Covenant Is Not A Law Of Itself? Not Sure Where He Is Going With That Statement, But Lets See What The Scriptures Teach On That Issue.
If You Mean By Law Approach Tim, A Legalistic Approach You Would Be Correct, But If You Mean Law Verses No Law Your Dead Wrong. The New Covenant Is The Perfect Law Of Liberty. James 1:25 We Will Be Judged By That Law Tim James 2:12 If We Walk In The Light Of Jesus New Covenant Perfect Law Of Liberty. Acts 2-Revelation 22 Then And Only Then Do We Have (COVENANT FELLOWSHIP) ONE With ANOTHER, Then And Only Then Will JESUS BLOOD Cleanse All Our Sins.
1 John 1:7. Get Outside Of New Covenant Grace And Truth Tim No Cleansing Of Your Sins, Get Outside Of The New Covenant Doctrine Of Christ You Don’t Even Have God.
2 John 9-11 Verses John 7:16 This Is Why You Must I Repeat Must Rightly Divide Gods Word Only By The Covenants To Understand It, And To Be Saved. 2 Tim 2:15. This Non Sense Of Grace Only Without Law Is satanic And Deceitful To The Core.The Entire New Covenant Is Jesus Law For Us Today, Verses The Much Tougher Old Testament Law Of Moses, And That Law Was Not I Repeat Not Legalistic, But Very Tough To Live. To Say grace Verses Law Is Very Deceitful If Not Understood In it’s Perspective. I Will Never Use That Phraseology To Any One. It Is The Law Verses New Covenant Perfect Law Of Liberty Grace And Truth.Romans 3:19-21 Romans 10:1-6. You Live By One Or The Other, In Our Case The Gentiles We Could Never Live By The Law Of Moses, Because We Were Never A Part Of That Covenant. John 4:22 Ephesians 2:11-12. Hope This Helps Albert.
Mickey
Mickey,
Again, your use of proof texts out of context reminds us that your beliefs can’t be taught using Scripture itself, but merely portions of Scripture ripped from their framework.
One major problem is that you confuse the term “New Testament” used to refer to books of the Bible with the new covenant that Jesus established. The fact that the new covenant began with the cross doesn’t mean that Jesus didn’t teach about the Kingdom and life in the Kingdom before the cross. He wasn’t giving law like the old law. He was showing people how to live like him.
I’ll accept being called a traditionalist, for I stand in the tradition of Christ and of the apostles. I will place my hopes on the Word of God, not a dispensational doctrine that men invented last century and tradition0-bound men have taught ever since.
Keep studying the Bible… in context… and maybe you’ll find the truth.
Blessings. Neither of us is posting again on this thread.
Grace and peace,
Tim
Mickey,
I am understanding this now, as far as Mickey getting out of context, I don’t see that. I have been studding everything from the begging of this post, I must say, Mickey does make a point. I have to be Bold about this, I am still studding. Tim, may I ask what Jule Miller has to do with this? I was never very big on his film strips.. Thanks Mickey, I will be back with more questions.. and thank you Tim!
Albert
May I ask why we can’t post here? I am learning a great deal..
Albert,
Mickey would be welcome to start his own blog. I’ll link to it. I don’t see a way to have an intelligent discussion with the types of comments being posted. If we could limit ourselves to one or two points per comment, that might work. But verses offered without context (I didn’t say violating context, always, just out of context) and in mass quantity don’t lead to good Bible study.
Grace and peace,
Tim
Tim
I Sure Do Not See Where You Are Coming From My Post Out Of Context? I Use Old Covenant Passages To Prove My Very Point. I Sure Hope You Decide To Keep This Going. Albert Is Interested In My Responses.
Mickey,
I will allow posts of a reasonable length. I am also going to be addressing this topic more in some new posts. Feel free to discuss there, but please try and be concise. Again, if you are wanting to present lengthy arguments, feel free to establish your own blog. I can help you if you’re unsure how to do that.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Ok Tim Thanks
Albert I Will Give You A Quick Review Of Some Things I Have Posted In Short Form.
1. Tim Still Thinks Jesus Used New Testament Kingdom Living Doctrine Before The Cross, Of Coarse This Is Not True. Jesus Taught Jews Under The Old Testament Kingdom They Were Still Under To Seek That Kingdom And Righteousness, And All The Things Jesus Promised Would Be Added Unto Them Mathew 6:33. Jesus Told Israel Eventually They Would Loose There Old Testament Kingdom, After They Rejected Him, At His Death On The Cross. Mathew 21:43. Romans 10:1-6
2. Tim Thinks I Confuse A Covenant With A Testament. This Again Is False Since Both Are The Same Thing. Jesus After The Cross Tells Israel His New Testament Covenant Doctrine. Acts 1:1-3 Before The Cross It Was All A Mystery, And No Revealing Of Any New Testament Until After The Cross. Ephesians 3:3-5. Tim Confuses That A Man Must Make Out His Will Before He Dies, Because Man Cannot Resurrect Himself Like Jesus Did, And There Is No Rule Of Thumb Any Where That States A Will Cannot Be Made After A Mans Death, And Jesus Planned Before The World Began His New Testament Will Anyway, And Delivered It After His Resurrection. 1 Peter 19-21
3. Jesus Never Once Used The Word Grace In His Earthly Ministry To The Jews Only. John 1:17, And Since John Was Written After The Cross Clearly Showing That Grace And New Covenant Truth Were Realized Through Jesus New Covenant Doctrine. Acts 2-Revelation 22. Acts 1:1-3 Mathew 28:18.
4. Jesus Only Taught The Law Of Moses Before The Cross, Because He Made That Quite Clear. Mathew 5:17-18 Mathew 7:12. Jesus Was Born Under The Law Of Moses To Save Only His People The Jews. Galatians 4:4-5 Mathew 1:21 Mathew 19:16-20 Luke 23:42-43 Jesus Had Not Come Into His New Covenant Kingdom When The Thief Requested This, And Was With Jesus In The Hadean World Of Paradise Under The Old Testament Kingdom Of Israel, And Forgave By The Laws Conditions. The Kingdom Was Not Taken From Israel Until After Jesus Dies. Mathew 21:43. Jesus Never Once Stated He Was Teaching New Testament Doctrine Of Any Kind, A Grace Error Taught By Traditional Teaching Brethren.
5. Old Testament Short Range Prophesy Does Not Make New Testament Doctrine. Luke 1:33 Old Testament Prophesy Of Jesus Never Ending New Covenant Kingdom, No New Testament Doctrine Here. Mathew 16:18 Short Range Prophesy Of Jesus New Testament Kingdom The Church, Which Began In Acts 2. Luke 23:42-43 Even The Thief Was Not Part Of It Or It’s Principles Or Doctrine. John 3:3-6 Old Testament Short Range Prophesy Of Jews Requirement To Be Born Again This Side Of The Cross, Not There Former Old Covenant Fleshly Born Status Would Cut It This Side Of The Cross, And Nicodemus Was Clueless On Jesus Prophesy. Ephesians 3:3-5, No New Testament Doctrine Here. Luke 22:15-20 Another Short Range Prophesy Of The Lords Supper, It Is Still The Passover Until The New Covenant Begins, No New Testament Doctrine Here.
I Will Stop Here For Now Albert, And Tim I Tried My Best To keep All Responses As Short As Possible And To The Point.
Thanks Mickey
572 words… I write regularly for a website that allows the entire article to be between 350 and 500 words. You traditional teaching brethren don’t know how to say things concisely.
Albert, I hope you are reading this week’s posts. Not sure why Mickey is fixated on denying the teachings of our Lord their rightful place in the church. I hope it’s not to get around doing the things that Jesus taught his followers to do!
Starting a discussion this week about brethren who reject the first 2/3 of God’s Word:
http://www.timothyarcher.com/kitchen/the-marcion-way/
Dear Brother Tim,
again thank you so much for letting us do a study were I really believe Mickey is making a good point. when I study, I try to Picture myself on the scene, I find this so very relaxing, and to, On my toes.. Jesus said Matthew 15:24, than I ask myself, am I a Jew? Jesus also told his followers NOT to go in the way of the Gentiles Matthew 10:5 a Gentile is a None-Jew, than I ask myself, if I was on the scene, would there be salvation for me and my family, of course it would be no. I Understand now where Mickey is going with this, and I must admit, you and I Tim could be wrong.. I am still studying and I must be Bold and honest, Look at the thief, a lot of our baptist friends will run to this claiming Faith only salvation without New Testament Baptism, they Jesus restored this Child of God Under the Law of Moses, He didn’t save him. I am still studying, Tim, Brother, You have to admit there is a difference between that Thief before the death of Christ, and Salvation in Acts 2.
Thank you again, and may God always Bless us while we study His truth!
Albert
Tim I Must Ask
What Is It With You Traditional Brethren And You Concisely Non Sense? Since When Does The Number Of Words Matter When Proving One’s Point, And Who Are You To decide The #? Just Curious On That One Sir.
Mickey,
It’s just that you traditional brethren don’t know how to discuss. You do data dumps. I’ve invited you to set up your own blog if you want to post comments longer than my original posts.
Do we have to keep calling each other traditional brethren? I Guess That’s The Only Way You Traditional Brethren Know How To Discuss Things.
To any reading this thread: Please know that “Albert” is Daniel Ross. He and Mickey know one another, at least via Internet. Daniel is very familiar with the ideas Mickey is presenting, even though he led me to believe otherwise.
well, there was a good reason for that Tim, seems like No one wants to hear the truth. Paul said, he did all things to win over a soul, and I took that upon myself to at least try.
I was going to mention it at a later time, but I wanted to at least help Brethren to wake up to the covenants, whenever I must do to get the truth out, I will.. By the way, Albert is my name (Middle name) No Lies! when I saw your title “Half Baked ideals” I was floored to how a pure lack the bible understand you all are really lacking. you know, and I know there was never a Gentile saved before the cross, so whatever Jesus said before hand, has nothing at all to do with Gentiles! Jesus PROPHECY (later actions) that’s not Doctrine! When Jesus told Peter I WILL build my church, again that was a PROPHECY. He never Build His church until Acts 2. when will you brethren wake up! There is Only ONE GOSPEL, Not Gospel’s. Thanks Tim for making it in BOLD letters about me, I also must say, you harp on Mickey length of his message, silly Brother! your back is against the wall, so you have to nit pick. Come On, get those covenants together and Preach Christ DEATH Burial and Resurrection. also to Matt, thanks for your Kind comments on the web site! Love all..
Danny
Daniel,
You lied when you said “I’ve never heard these teachings before.” And you were being underhanded and deceitful. That’s condemned under both covenants. Your defense of that is truly disheartening.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
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