In the comments section yesterday, Rex Butts shared a link to a blog post that contained the following excerpt from a church bulletin:
“That morning’s worship service features: (Our) Color Guard’s flag presentation and the Pledge of Allegiance, patriotic music. patriotic hymn sing, no sermon but a Reading of the Declaration of Independence, and we will join in prayers for our nation. We ask that all our Community First Responders and active and veteran Military please dress in uniform for this service so we can acknowledge all that you have done and do for us. Additionally , everyone is invited to bring a flag to church (mind the size). You will be asked to wave it during singing, the ushers will give out small flags to those present. So invite all your friends, neighbors, and acquaintances to” (church’s name) Celebrates the Flag on The 4th of July.”
Here’s hoping everyone is uncomfortable with this! “Forget that dry sermon and boring hymns. Let’s sing patriotic songs and read the Declaration of Independence.”
Sigh…
As a missionary who is soon leaving the field to return to the US, I can say that my time living in another country has made this kind of stuff even more deplorable than it was to me before. Whatever happened to being citizens of the kingdom of heaven?
Always remember God is on the side of right, and not the far left……
Figuring out what side God is on misses the point, i think. When we engage in practices such as the ones mentioned above, what do those practices say about who’s side we are on?
–guy
H.B.,
Jesus is at God’s right hand, so God is on the left. :-)
If you’re talking politics, believe me, He’s not on the side of either one.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
The quote from the church bulletin bothers me greatly. I go to “church” to worship my God, not my nation. I am a Christian first and an American somewhat further down the list.
As for whose side God is on, I think we should remember that the Sovereign Ruler selects leaders for His purposes (Examples, David, Nebuchadnezzer, Cyrus, Pontius Pilot, just to name 4) and we are not always in the know about why.
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Yes Tim I was being political. I know that by saying churches shouldn’t get involved in politics is sticky for some. I feel that our sense of politics is not for church activism.
I am a firm believer in separation of church and state. I firmly believe that the 10 commandments be removed from any public property or building. I think that if the churches want to play politics let them also pay to play, taxes…..Want to raise a stink, start taxing all exempt entities. Non for profits, churches, Associations like Sertoma, Lions Club and Fraternal organizations……Let the politicians govern and the way I speak out is at the voting booth…….
I’m not sure God believes in separation between “church and state”. The funny thing is that though the separation between church and state was to keep the state from interfering in the religious beliefs and practices of the religious community, the opposite has occurred. The state has efficiently found a way to put God in the closet (the church building) and increasingly diminish his influence upon public life…and that my friends will prove to be a costly mistake.
And no, I’m not one of those right-winged fundamentalist who is fighting to keep the Ten Commandments on the courthouse and the “under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance (I’m actually more Anabaptist in my thinking). I’m just stating the obvious…when a person or nation cuts themselves off from God, who creates and sustains life, a slow death comes creeping in.
Grace and Peace,
Rex
How short our memories seem to be. The continental congress wanted to make George Washington king of the United States or another way to state it president for life. Make no mistake about it, he knew that creating a Napoleonic state would not give liberty to people who came for religious freedom. A lot of people came from Europe to escape governments heavily influenced by the Church of England and the Catholic church. For a long time in European history the Church in all intents and purposes was the government and the kings of Europe were placed by the church in Rome. Decreed by the church the” Devine right of Kings” ruled for centuries.
Taxes and tithes keep the common man downtrodden. One thing is for sure, religion in all forms is the opiate for the masses.
I saw a documentary where women of India go to temple and sacrifice their long beautiful hair. They do this to gain favor of their temple gods. Your perception is your reality. Now what does the temple do with all this hair? They sell it to brokers who clean it match it up in length and sell it to beauty salons in the U.S. Who are the major buyers of this hair? Ladies who want soft long beautiful hair and pay 100’s for hair extensions……My point is this, we pretend to live in this perfect society where everything is white and tidy………its not…we live in a world society and we must IMHO think outside the box. This country is a melting pot of races, customs, cultures,languages and varied religions and that is what makes this country, diverse.
Pat: the point you make, about God selecting rulers, then he chose, Attila the Hun, Khengis Kahn, Alexander the Great, Stalin, Moussalini, Emperor Hero Hito, and finally Hitler…….hmmmmmm
Jesus is Lord.
@ Heavenbound
God certainly does put all rulers in place, even the evil ones. Sometimes God displays his power by using evil to bring about the greatest possible good. The crucifixion of Christ demonstrates this. God certainly did not condone the betrayal of Judas, the indifference of Pilate, or the crystal of a bloodthirsty crowd, but he did ordain these things to take place so redemption could be accomplished.
He likewise uses unjust rulers to bring about his purposes.
Matt. 26:24
English Standard Version (©2001)
The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”
historically speaking God dealt directly with Israel and indirectly thru Israel with the Gentiles. Don’t you think that the destruction of the temple and the death of Christ and his accension changed his dealings with man? Don’t you think the dispersion of the Jews and the enslavement of Israel by Rome changed anything? The fact that no prophet has come forward for 2000 years has changed anything? IMHO everything changed……Think about it
H.B., there is some validity to your argument. We at times fail to understand the significance of what the earthly nation of Israel meant.
At the same time, it’s an exaggeration to say that everything changed. The biggest factor in the equation didn’t change: God. He continues to act in this world. That’s why the New Testament writers talk about God’s hand in shaping the course of nations, right up to the book of Revelation.
I would also point out that God dealt with other nations in ways that were unrelated to Israel as well. Why would God cease to do that today? There is nothing about the mystery that God revealed to the apostles that would change that.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Tim: You brought up a very good point. Lets take George Bush, Did God tell him to invade Iraq? What about the WMD issue? Would God do such a thing as advise a President of the United States to invade a Muslim country? Would or could anyone suggest that this was a holy war? Wouldn’t God have also told him that there were no WMD?
What you are doing is traveling thru time with no regard for the last 2000 years.
From my viewpoint futurists are on shaky ground. The only thing that has changed is that God has changed his dealings with earthlings. From a physical realm to a spiritual realm. Can you see the change from exclusive to inclusive?
As a professor, don’t you challenge your students? Don’t you ask them to think for themselves? As a former teacher myself, I always challenged students, not to accept everything hook, line and sinker. Test the water, read something controversial, you might learn something. On this blog I have suggested readings as you have. The one book that gave me clarity, was a book written 100 years ago by Sir Robert Anderson,
titled “The Silence of God.” It gave me perspective, it gave me clarity, and it gave me answers the church couldn’t or wouldn’t……….
In addition, I want to thank you for bringing up the preterist view of the book of Revelation……it sure makes sense to me now…..With the complete works of Josephus it has completely opened my eyes, in that the book says what it says and means what it means…….
H.B.,
I’m guessing that something in what I wrote inspired you to write the comment that you did, but for the life of me, I’m just not sure what it was.
As I’ve pointed out numerous times, the biggest problem with your views is that they can’t be found in the Bible without reading into it. That’s why books like Anderson’s are necessary for anyone to come to the conclusions you’ve come to.
So let me challenge you with a book that you need to read with fresh eyes: the Bible. It repeatedly contradicts the viewpoints you’ve expressed here on this blog.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Tim, where would we be if Martin Luther, didn’t challenge the Catholic church. Where would we be if he didn’t think outside of what tradition taught him. He read the same bible as the Catholic church fathers, did he not? He saw something that no one dare speak of. Grace and the fact that Christians didn’t need the church to be saved. That last rights had no significance in forgiveness. that purgatory and limbo where just made up places for the church that had no answers to church members’ questions. That praying for the lost wasn’t a lost cause, that you could pray your loved ones out of purgatory.
Now tradition has taught us many things but it has also left us with many questions left unanswered. To take advantage of someone else’s study and to come to conclusions unlike your own, stimulates thinking, dialogue and a possible conclusion of what I thought was right, based on my accumilated knowledge, wasn’t right at all.
The whole idea of preterism vs futurism is something I thought about but didn’t have any knowledge on the subject. I always looked at the coming of Christ from a furturist point of view. Not knowing that there was other views substantiated, written about and believed in. Finally my point is this, we can all learn from someone else’s point of view if we allow that point of view to be heard. Just like Martin Luther…..
Tim,
Just curious, but how do you feel about flags (in general) displayed within the church building? Cause the church I attend is full of them! (And I appreciate it.)
Troy, as long as no flag is given preferential treatment, I don’t know that I’d have a problem with it.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer