Another area of confusion in studying the Holy Spirit is the subject of being baptized with the Holy Spirit. I guess this is one of the areas where Douglas Jacoby’s work got me to looking at a new interpretation that I hadn’t considered before. You can read his views here:
http://douglasjacoby.com/view_article.php?ID=1438
The article isn’t as long as it looks; for some reason it is repeated on the same page. Jacoby credits Richard Rogers with having taught this view before he did. You can also read it in this article from Restoration Quarterly from the 1970s:
http://www.acu.edu/sponsored/restoration_quarterly/archives/1970s/vol_21_no_4_contents/terry.html
The basic thrust is this: the outpouring of the Holy Spirit and being baptized with the Holy Spirit describe the same event from two different points of view. God pours out, mankind is immersed. Compare it to you pouring water into a glass that contains a stone: for you, the action is pouring, but the stone sees it as being covered by the water.
Some observations:
- The promise from John the Baptist should be considered: “Matthew 3:10 The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. 11 “I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. 12 His winnowing fork is in his hand, and he will clear his threshing floor, gathering his wheat into the barn and burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.” Note that John talks about one who wil baptize with the Spirit and with fire. In the preceding verse, fire refers to judgment. In the verse that follows, fire refers to judgment. The natural reading would be to interpret “fire” in verse 11 as judgment. So Christ will baptize with the Spirit and with a condemning fire. It would make sense that all men receive one or the other; you are either baptized with the Spirit or you will be baptized with fire. This interpretation of “baptized with the Holy Spirit” fits what John said.
- Being baptized with the Holy Spirit is mentioned in Acts 1 as occurring soon; Acts 2, which seems to be a fulfillment of that promise, is when Peter refers to the outpouring of the Spirit. It makes sense for both to refer to the same event.
- No one is told to seek nor expect to be baptized with the Spirit after Acts 2. That is, no Christian is told that they still need this baptism. It is stated as having occurred (1 Corinthians 12:13), but nobody is told that they lack this baptism.
- When the Spirit came on Cornelius and his followers, Peter remembered the promise of being baptized with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit “came on” Cornelius as it had the apostles in the beginning, and that reminded Peter of the promised outpouring. That’s when he realized the Spirit had been poured out on all mankind, just as Peter himself had said back in Acts 2.
Several passages connect being baptized with the Spirit with our baptism in water: John 3:5, Titus 3:4-6. That’s also the most logical understanding of 1 Corinthians 12:13. When we are baptized in water, we are born of water and Spirit, we enjoy the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Sprit. We are immersed into the poured-out Spirit, baptized in him if you will. By our baptism in that one Spirit, occurring when we obey (Acts 5:32, Acts 2:38), we are brought into the body of Christ, baptized into Christ as the Bible says (Romans 6:4; Galatians 3:27). We experience the benefits of the outpouring of God’s Spirit which occurred the day of Pentecost, in Acts 2.
laymond says:
February 10, 2012 at 10:10 am
I don’t have issues with church music, but I do have a subject I wish you would take up when you get the time.
If you really want something to discuss, that I believe most don’t understand, try the following.
“baptism with the Holy Ghost”
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
If we keep these two vs. in context, it sounds to me like John is talking about “judgment day” where Jesus will judge the righteous, and the wicked. not some earthly baptism.
laymond says:
February 10, 2012 at 7:25 pm
Tim, please allow me a few questions.
#1 do you believe you can be baptized in the “Holy Ghost” and not be saved.?
#2 Do you believe one can be safe in Jesus, and then pulled out of that safe place by Satan?
#3 Do you believe once saved forever saved.?
#4 Do you believe you can be baptized in water, and not saved?
#5 can you give a reason for your belief?
1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Laymond,
OK, I’ll play your game:
#1: No (though I’m not sure if you mean “have been baptized” or at the time of being baptized; I’ll go with the second)
#2: No
#3: No
#4: Yes, in a literal sense of the word baptized. No, in a spiritual sense. (And again, not sure if you mean at the time of being baptized or in the state of having been baptized)
#5: Yes
Tim you might be surprised how much you can find out with a few questions
#1 do you believe you can be baptized in the “Holy Ghost” and not be saved.?
#1: No (though I’m not sure if you mean “have been baptized” or at the time of being baptized; I’ll go with the second)
( I fail to see what difference it makes whether you are freshly baptized or it has some age on it. we are talking about the promise of God, salvation of the human soul. (if you are safe in the bosom of Abraham, you are saved, until then you are not)
#2 Do you believe one can be safe in Jesus, and then pulled out of that safe place by Satan?
#2: No
(you said no to #2, but you said no also to #3)
#3 Do you believe once saved forever saved.?
#3: No
(how does this work)
#4 Do you believe you can be baptized in water, and not saved?
#4: Yes, in a literal sense of the word baptized. No, in a spiritual sense. (And again, not sure if you mean at the time of being baptized or in the state of having been baptized)
(well I mostly agree with you here, water baptism (in my opinion) is the only one that requires your thought input)
#5 can you give a reason for your belief?
#5: Yes
You chose not to give the reasons, and after your previous answers I see why.
Is there any place in scripture that says physical baptism, and spiritual baptism happen at the same moment? or that spiritual baptism happens any time before judgment day.
Laymond,
Note in question #2 you asked if Satan can steal our salvation. I said no. Then you asked if salvation can be lost. I said yes. Satan can’t steal it, but we can lose it.
I didn’t choose not to answer. You asked if I can give a reason for my belief. I can. That’s an answer. Did you have something particular in mind, or am I supposed to lay out my whole theology just for your pleasure?
There’s no place in Scripture that talks about baptism in the Spirit as a future thing after Pentecost.
Grace and peace,
Tim
The following seems to me to be the point at which Jesus declares one either saved or lost, and not before.
Mat 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
I agree that the “dead in Christ” have the right to say “I am saved” but who gives them that right, and what gives them that right. Jesus judges them, and death seals them. No one can say “I know I am saved” as long as they live here on earth.
We have “hope” as long as we live. But to know is not hope.
Rom 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
You said
Note in question #2 you asked if Satan can steal our salvation. I said no. Then you asked if salvation can be lost. I said yes. Satan can’t steal it, but we can lose it.
Tim, what happens to the gift of salvation, (you recieved here on earth) from God, if Satan/ the prince of earth did not steal it?
I agree that Jesus said that those in his hands could not be snached from his hands, that is another reason for my wondering just when one is truly in his hands.
My point being, surely, when Jesus pronounces you saved you are saved, and not before.
Laymond,
Note that the New Testament talks about salvation as being past and future. “You have been saved” (like Ephesians 2) and “will be saved” (Philippians 1:28, for example) are both valid statements in the New Testament. That’s like what the Bible says about the kingdom, that it’s here and is to come, that we’re in it and waiting to be received into it. People who like fancy words call it “eschatological tension.”
You asked: “What happens to the gift of salvation, (you recieved here on earth) from God, if Satan/ the prince of earth did not steal it?” You’re talking about salvation as if it were something physical, rather than a state of being. If you lose consciousness, where does it go? If you lose your mind, where does it go? When a college student loses his eligibility, where does it go?
Grace and peace,
Tim
Tim, I believe the patron saint of the church of Christ, St Paul said
” For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?”
And that vehicle of hope is the gospel.
Col 1:5 For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
So Tim, I take it you are saved, so you have no reason to hope for yourself, your only reason for having hope is for lost souls, such as myself,so they might be where you already are. Do I have it close to right? Oh that is if we remain grounded and settled in our faith in the gospel.
You are a lucky man Tim, most of us have things to do in order to have any hope of salvation, and here you are already saved.
Laymond,
Thanks for the insults. I hope they made you feel better.
Grace and peace,
Tim
Tim, I have no idea what I said that would be insulting to a “saved Christian” was it what I said or what Paul said. no insults intended.
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