In exploring our allegiance to our Christian nation versus our allegiance to an earthly kingdom, it might help to view a case study. I know that there is a danger in the use of hypothetical situations, but maybe they can help us stretch our thinking a bit.
Last year, Governor Rick Perry of Texas suggested that Texas might be better off seceding from the United States. I doubt that he was serious in the least, but let’s play with that idea a bit. What if Texas seceded from the Union, followed by some of the other southern states? If a civil war broke out, would you advise Christians to participate in that war?
I guess I’d like to know, just for future reference, which of my brothers would choose to kill me under those circumstances. I doubt I’d be a primary target, but I could be “collateral damage” if Dyess Air Force Base were attacked. Would you kill me?
Should Alabama Christians be bearing arms against their California brethren? Would Christians who have locked arms in fellowship now take pot shots against one another?
Which of you plan to kill my son? He’s of military age. Who will kill my nephews? I’ve got one that is in the military. It would help me be better prepared for that time to come if I knew which of my brothers would be willing to pull the trigger on my family. In similar discussions, I’ve been told that it really doesn’t matter if opposing soldiers are Christians or not. So why don’t we get it out in the open beforehand?
It happened before. It could happen again.
It wouldn’t hurt to decide beforehand where our loyalties lie. Which kingdom takes precedence? Which loyalty is greater? Which master will we serve?
Feel free to comment below, choosing one of the two positions:
- Sure, I’d kill any of my Christian brothers who were on the wrong side.
- No, my Christian nation is more important to me. No kingdom of this world can tell me to kill my brothers.
Umm, last time I checked, a lot of Alabama Christians had disfellowshipped Pepperdine, et al. So maybe a civil war would give people an opportunity to live out their legalism.
The us military kills Christians in other countries all the time, and thinks nothing about it cause their skin is a different color and they dress and talk funny.
Pretty sure neither side would have a problem killing Christians, whether those who would secede or those that stay loyal.
Just goes to show the abiguities of conflicts of nations, and why Christians put themselves in a precarious situation when they decide to become part of the empire.
No, my Christian nation is more important to me. No kingdom of this world can tell me to kill my brothers.
—-
I guess I should not be surprised but I am to hear that ANY Christian would say that it doesn’t matter if opposing soldiers are Christians or not. God must be beside himself to hear such a callous and apathetic attitude coming from soneone who has been saved by the blood of Jesus.
Grace and peace,
Rex
No, Tim. I would not kill you or your son or anyone else. Do you have an option on would I lay down my life for yours?
BTW, have you asked any of your neighbors how they would feel about it? What if their employer asked them to move to Mexico and war broke out between the U.S. and Mexico? Would they be willing to move there? If they moved before the war, would they want to come home to Texas on the front lines? Would they take up arms against a brother or sister who sheltered displaced/refugee Mexicans? The possible scenarios are endless. But perhaps your questions are best left alone. They’d start the discussion rolling without getting into the relativities of political intrigue.
Great post … and probably one more than a little disturbing to some who read it.
So, my question is; are we doing what is right by “rallying” behind our veterans we know and see from day to day? Just curious…Great post Sir!
Rex, I can’t seem to find it at the moment, but Jay Guin made a very reasonable argument that the presence of Christians in enemy armies should not affect our actions. You can see his series on Pacifism here:
http://oneinjesus.info/index-under-construction/theology-general/pacifism/
His main point was that death is not a tragedy for the Christian, therefore higher principles (justice, etc.) take precedence in the discussion.
I’m not saying I was convinced by the argument, just saying that it was well thought out.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Trent,
I don’t call into question the motives of men who have served. Many have done so for honorable motives, have served at great personal loss, and have done so out of a sense of service to God. Though I may not agree with their choice, I feel that I can respect it. I admire their courage.
I don’t agree with honoring veterans during a worship service, but I don’t have a problem with recognizing their service.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
On top of this answer. I would probably help hide you and or your family from the powers that be if in any way possible.
No, my Christian nation is more important to me. No kingdom of this world can tell me to kill my brothers.
Blessings,
Greg
No, Dr. Archer. I would not kill you. And that has nothing to do with the fact that we’d both be on this side of the boundary. I can’t imagine any Christian being even ok with killing other Chritians let alone others in general. Very scary, eye-opening idea. Thanks.
Greg and Kaytlin, welcome to The Kitchen. Don’t think you’ve commented before.
And I’m not a doctor, nor have I played one on TV. But thanks for the comment!
I guess it would all depend on what mood I was in that day. Was I grumpy and cranky, did I feel gracious in that moment. Had the Spurs just beaten the Celtics in the NBA Finals, etc.
For this Alabamian, I must clear up that my wife’s family of Alabama, seceded from the Confederate States (Torries of the Hills, Winston County, Alabama), my family has no record of any serving in the Confederate Army, but some in the Union. But that is beside the point.
I do not know that I could ever personally take up arms in an offensive. I do believe I could and might even take up arms to defend my family and home (Would I shoot to kill or to warn? I am not sure.). When I was eligible for the draft, I prayed for the strength to do what was right. I determined to enter into one of two military fields if they were open to me (1. Chaplaincy or 2. Medic). I think that either would provide me with opportunity to heal rather than destroy.
Just my rambling thoughts.
Actually, those Alabama Christiams might join in seceding. Your article does raise some interesting questions. Could we have a peaceful revolution or would we see things like the Civil War? Would the powers that be really want to attack a former state? Would the generals in charge give such a command and would the troops under that command accept or reject such an order? How would the courts rule and what power would they have to change or influence any seceding state?
R J Rummel, a retired U. of Hawaii prof. has studied how nations kill their own citizens. Democracies usually negotiate whereas dictatorship states go to war.
Tim,
If that was his line of reasoning, I would probably have some serious disagreements. Justice is a principle Christians are called to employ BUT justice is not just a goal it is also a means or process and therefore, how we act has as much to do with justice as what we hope to accomplish. Of course, I believe the difference between utilitarian (the end goal is what matters) and deontological (the process is what matters) ethics is as much of a discussion on hermeneutics as it is ethics. I used to naively operate by a utilitarian ethic but the more my hermenuetic became centered around trying to live as Jesus lived (I am oversimplifying at this point) the more I moved towards a deontological approach.
Grace and peace,
Rex
BTW, in light of my comment #3, I would not characterize Jay Guin as being “Callous and apathetic”. I took your original comment about it not mattering if Christians are being killed or not in a reference of some Christian just dismissing any gospeled reasoning that interfered with his/her nationalistic thinking (which is increasingly more common these days).
Grace and peace,
Rex
No. I would not take up arms against my Christian brothers and sisters who were on the “wrong side”. For one, I don’t believe they would be on the wrong side of Good vs. evil as it is mentioned in scripture.
Down on the Trinity River they have a old saying….” Don’t start no trouble, there won’t be no trouble.” I don’t believe Christians start wars, but many are forced to finish them. Thankful for those that stood up against forces of evil and lay down there lives for “One Nation Under God”.
Rex,
I knew you would not regard Jay’s thoughts as falling into those categories. I referred to him as a way of saying that not only the arrogant and callous could look at things that way; there are thoughtful, Christian men that take such a view.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Larry,
I’m afraid that Christians have often ended up on the wrong side of things, duped by the powers of this world that seek their own ends. There were good Christian men fighting on both sides of the U.S. Civil War, for example.
In Rwanda, as Rex cited before, a civil war broke out in a country that was 90% Christian (by some claims). Evil knows how to seduce good people into serving in its cause.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
I see your point Tim. Thanks.
Thanks, George, for the comment. I haven’t heard of Rummel’s work. I’ll have to look for it.
(And actually, in my scenario, I envisioned Alabama as being one of the states that would follow Texas.)
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
I’ve used similar arguments to make the same point many times over the years. No, of course not! No earthly nation has the right to enlist me to kill my fellow citizens of the heavenly kingdom. BTW, were using Letters from the Lamb in our College/Young Professionals class. All I hear is positive.
—JLP
Has there ever been “one nation under God?” I know Israel was called to live as such but if we take the OT seriously, even they failed to live “under God”. As for my own nation. I have no doubt that there have been leaders, including the some of the founding fathers, who professed to be Christians just as there have been leaders in recent history who profess to be Christian. But lets not confuse a profession of Christian faith as somehow being “one nation under God.” To live under God means, from a biblical perspective to live by a biblical worldview or from a more confessional standpoint, to live under the Lordship of Jesus. There are just too many examples, past and present, that can be cited to question whether the U.S. (or any other current nation) has ever really lived as a nation “under God.” Thus the echo of the Apostle John in Revelation 18 rings all the more loudly.
Grace and peace,
Rex
Thanks Joshua for the comment. I’m excited that you’re using the book. We’re getting ready to put up a page of comments from those who have used the book. You might get someone from that class to send in their thoughts.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Tim…. I forgot to mention earlier. The answer is still NO.
Rex… God’s Grace through his son Jesus covers the whole world, not just one nation.
Great posts and comments on this blog.
Wow, 24 comments on a blog post. I’m impressed :)
I wish we were as passionate about fighting for the Lord’s Kingdom as we are for earthly kingdoms (including our own). Good topic and article.
Actually, Paula, I’m disappointed. Not with the number of comments, but with the lack of disagreement. I’m afraid those that disagree just don’t think it’s worth the effort to “push back.”
Part of your arguement is moot. The conflict itself would sort the matter between pacifist/nonpacifist. I would never kill you because you wouldn’t be an opponent because of your beliefs. However, my Christian brothers that felt that military participation was acceptible would perhaps be targets, but they would have voluntarily taken that risk. So we would have combatants versus combatants and non-combatants not versus non-combatants. Assuming we’re all abiding by the Geneva Convention, of course.
I think my favorite part of you post is where you said “Would Christians who have locked arms in fellowship now take pot” to which I say “Yes!”
Of course, Brad, that is why I listed myself merely as “collateral,” and placed my son and nephews in harm’s way.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
I get more disturbed by the day at the unspoken violence that seems to underwrite much of our Christian culture. I’m mindful of what Isaiah said in prophesying the coming of God’s spiritual kingdom: “…and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.”
It saddens me that we may be willing to shed blood while claiming to serve the Prince of Peace. Nope, you’re in no danger from me.
Tim you are just a disturber of the peace!!! Why should we trouble with such thorny questions??
You know David Lipscomb asked that same question in 1896 when the USA was threatening war against the evil British Empire. So he asked “Should the Christians of America kill the Christians of England?” In 1898 he asked it again: “Should the Christians of the US kill the Christians of Spain?” Then he asked if Jesus would enlist in the English army or the American army. Hmmmm interesting questions … See Kingdom Come on some of this stuff.
Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
Tim,
First, when I heard the Texas Governor say that Texas would seced from the union in its current state, I told Carrie that we better start packing because we were moving to Texas.
Second, you are a provoker of challenging thoughts and yet you ask us to look within ourselves to seek the answers; that my friend keeps me up at night. I for one, believe in self-defense and even war, but your question is askign in a different light which , challenges my current thought process. While I believe in self defense and even war, I hate conflict. I deal with conflict, but I hate conflict. Conflict usually breeds a larger battle than a simple disagreement.
So, to your question, No, I would not kill you. The fact that the Civil War caused much heartbreak and destroyed families should be a warning to each of us.
My greater question is, how many of us would not kill our spiritual brother in a physical way, but we destroy them in a spiritual way?
Just my thoughts….now, off to more coffee.
Amen to your conclusion in #26.
And Amen and again I say Amen to #31.
I’ve had so many peace loving pacifist gracious brothers say “Raca” and “You fool” to me on the old blogosphere that I DON’T waste my time any more.
It’s interesting, Don, how emotional this topic becomes. Victor McCracken wrote about that very thing in Restoration Quarterly. I’ve been called a coward numerous times, told that I had a “twisted mind,” etc. Even a respected writer like Al Maxey told me that he has no use for me because of my questioning the appropriateness of Christians participating in the military. It’s sad to me that most serious topics can’t be discussed civilly, not even within the church.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Whether the conversation partners realize it or not, this discussion often crosses the line between identity and practice. If a person is clear about their identity, confident in it, (and the conversation is mostly free of sarcasm and passive-aggressive accusations) they can generally talk about their practice without becoming agitated. But if identity and practice are conflated in their minds, then discussing IM or alcohol or our stance towards the state creates anxiety, because they feel like their identity and worth before God are under attack.