As we explore the topic of saints ceasing to be saints, let me encourage us all to proceed with caution. I see no profit in a war of proof texts. Those that disagree with us don’t do so out of ignorance of any certain biblical text, so comments like “You obviously haven’t read…” don’t add anything to the discussion.
(By the way, I really had no idea that Jay Guin was going to post on the same subject yesterday. I’d encourage you to read his post “Perseverance: A Reply To Randall,” especially reading through the comments there.)
If Christian history teaches us anything, it’s that godly, intelligent men have come to different conclusions on this. Differing views are not the private property of any one group, not even the fellowship we call the church of Christ.
A couple of thoughts:
(1) We need to be careful about making salvation merely a question of “going to heaven” or not. I’d encourage us to think in terms of forming part of the body of Christ, being a member of the family of God. The question we are discussing is whether or not you can be counted among the saints, then cease to be in that group.
(2) As JR has pointed out, it’s not easy to discuss this topic without touching on other theological ideas. I’m open to that. To be honest, this is not a pre-packaged presentation; I’m making this up as I go. I have a few concrete ideas and lots of questions. I’m hoping we can all grow through this discussion.
(3) As Royce said, many things will be said that have been said before, and it’s doubtful that anything will be “settled.” Hopefully, though, we will learn truth along the way.
I’m still unsure of the structure of how we’ll move forward. Feel free to offer suggestions.
Looking at the meaning of salvation, the concept of family seems to be a more basic way of seeing it than looking at it as a judicial process. We are beloved children of God. I am still coming around on the Prodigal Son. Love and mercy are strong traits of God, but he does seem to have some limits (1 Jn. 5:16). The hardest part of it all may be comuning with everyone that he calls son or daughter.
Cut and dried logical legal arguments may not be as deep or even as important as emotions are.
I have a feeling this will be a learning growing process for you and those that follow. May God guide your path to a good conclusion.
NT Wright would suggest, I think, that the reason we place so much emphasis on the “judicial process” idea of salvation is that we’ve spent at least 500 years using Romans and, to a lesser extent, Galatians as the Rosetta Stone by which we interpret the rest of the New Testament.
And while I completely agree with Royce’s skepticism that any great theological breakthroughs will occur, I think that undermines the true value of doing this — developing and growing in our spiritual-theological family. And if we’re honest, we’ll encounter Truth all along the way — it is His hand that we’re holding onto, His arm around our shoulders, His elbow in our ribs when we say or discover something funny.
Its kind of funny you mentioned us as saints. The term saint was first used in I Sam. 2:9 10 century B.C. This of course a reference used to describe God’s people (Israel). By my study we look at where a word was first used to establish a meaning of the word. A thousand years before any Christians walked the earth. It seems like we have taken this word and applied it to present day believers. Is this a mistake on our part? In regards to losing a free gift, it doesn’t change the fact that a gift was given. What we do with it doesn’t change the fact that it occurred. In the eyes of the giver, the gift is given. In my opinion its our blessing on this earth knowing about the gift. To bad everybody doesn’t know they have a gift in their name…………