All right, let me try and tie up the loose ends from this series:
- Paul begins a section of thought in Romans 12, speaking of how to offer ourselves as living sacrifices. This lifestyle is highlighted by an attitude of love. Love for enemies, priority of peace, refusal to take revenge… all of this is a part.
- Romans 13:1-7 is a part of that life of love. Rather than getting caught up in the social unrest of the moment, the Christians were to submit to this evil government. Though Paul recognizes that there are sinister powers at work behind the government, God has “ordered” those powers, keeping them within prescribed bounds.
- If the Roman Christians will eschew the rebellious attitude typical of the Jews, Paul says that they need not fear the present government. This is especially true within the big picture of Christ’s return.
- It bears repeating that the principle of honoring authority and obeying laws is repeated several times in the New Testament. This is part of living at peace and respecting others.
I really think that, because of the misuse of this passage, our discussion yesterday of what isn’t said here is as important as the discussion of what is said. If we’d limit ourselves to what Paul is actually discussing, we could actually learn a lot.
“Romans 13:1-7 is a part of that life of love. Rather than getting caught up in the social unrest of the moment, the Christians were to submit to this evil government.”
Tim, I don’t remember exactly what your thought are on “the new covenant” do you conclude, as many do it freed us from the laws given through Moses, if so were we freed from God’s law just to be put under man’s law.? as you might or may not know I am one that don’t adhere to the ” freed from the law thinking.”
Tim you said:
Romans 13:1-7 is a part of that life of love. Rather than getting caught up in the social unrest of the moment, the Christians were to submit to this evil government. Though Paul recognizes that there are sinister powers at work behind the government, God has “ordered” those powers, keeping them within prescribed bounds.
Clay responds:
If we too lived under that regime we too would need to be submissive.
We do not and we have a choice of which we prefer, our present one with our one vote or the future one where one vote is taken away. I chose to serve the Lord and speak against the social unjust
such as abortion and the murder of the innocent.
Some will chose not too and that’s fine with me. I just hope it’s fine with God.
Grace and peace Clay
Wow, Clay. That’s pretty harsh. Maybe you didn’t mean that comment as judgmentally as it sounds. Please remember that many choose to fight against social ills like abortion, warfare, economic injustices, etc. through many means. Some of them, like you, opt for using the tools that the political system offers.
If someone makes a choice different than yours, are you implying that person is sinning against God?
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
No, Laymond, “freed from God’s law to be put under man’s law” in no way represents my thinking.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Greetings Lamond
You said:Tim, I don’t remember exactly what your thoughts are on “the new covenant” do you conclude, as many do it freed us from the laws given through Moses, if so were we freed from God’s law just to be put under man’s law.? as you might or may not know I am one that don’t adhere to the ” freed from the law thinking.”
Clay responds:
I do not believe we were JUST freed from Moses’s Law that only condemned I believe we were freed from “The Law that condemns”
Romans 7:6
But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.
When uninspired men make up Law’s for followers of the Christ, for
God, with the assumption that He forgot, or we “assume” NT followers were obeying The Law that condemned them, (although God nor anyone else ever stated them) as we read of their daily walks and we “spot” one occasion where it is indicated they met with an inspired Apostle at Troas who gave them a missionary report and we try SO HARD to turn that into a physical worship, to be done ritually every Sunday from that one mention in the travels of Paul we are being soooooo misguided.
We no longer serve in that “manner”
No longer under a law that condemns us for we now serve in the way of the Spirit and we now worship from our hearts and no longer with out flesh ritually.
God is Spirit and we worship Him from our hearts where God now dwells in spirit and in truth through our renewed mind.
We die to our flesh!
1 I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.
Grace and peace Clay
I am one that don’t adhere to the ” freed from the law thinking.”
what I meant by that statement, we are not freed to disobey God’s law. It is still just as much a sin to lie, kill, steal, and so on as it ever was. but Jesus taught us how to avoid those pitfalls, in the following statement.
Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
If we truly love God above all else, we will obey him.
(therefore we obey and follow Jesus, because he spoke for God)
If we truly love our fellow man as our self, we will not harm him. If we live with this in mind we will not need to worry about the law.
Greetings Tim you asked:
If someone makes a choice different than yours, are you implying that person is sinning against God?
Clay responds: Only if they ignore the evils of what’s taking place in
their presence and only if the chose to do nothing.
Sorry it came across harsh, that wasn’t my intention. I just try to do
what you do Tim and wake US all up to what God would have us do.
Grace and peace Clay
Clay, I’m becoming more and more convinced that the church’s political activity is only damaging the Kingdom and accomplishing little in the secular realm. I guess that’s why I reacted to the implications of your comment. I dream of the day when the thousands of hours Christians spend talking politics were spent on Kingdom affairs.
I fully agree, however, that choosing to do nothing regarding the world’s injustices is the wrong attitude.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
I have attended The Joelton church of Christ for 40+yrs and was raised
in the church 3rd generation.
NEVER have I heard one political word spoken in SS or the Assembly.
Rarely after the assembly have I heard politics.
Know what I hear?
“SPORTS” “SPORTS” “SPORTS” That’s what I hear.
I DO NOT participate in “SPORTS” talk.
I am a NASCAR fan. LOL
Jimmie Johnson # 48 and Jeff Gordon # 24 are awesome!
Now Dale jr. has been a BIG disappointment and if he doesn’t improve quickly, I may trash my shrine to his Father Dale SR. that died in Daytona a couple of years ago in a wreck.
Grace and peace Clay
Clay,
Just follow a few Christians on Facebook. Compare the number (and vigor) of political comments to those with spiritual tones.
Outsiders see the church as a political organization, focused on promoting certain political agendas. Those that don’t agree with those agendas are put off. A stumbling block is created. There may be some who avoid church because of certain NASCAR leanings, but I’ve never heard of such.
BTW, you can download the chapter from the book UnChristian which discusses this problem: http://www.unchristian.com/
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
I’m not sure I agree with your perspective Tim.
I see people on FB being people that are trying to be themselves
and building relationships.
Some come on and you would think they were Moses.
They have one perspective of life while on FB and that is religion.
Wasn’t it Jesus that ate and drank with sinners? Do you think they dialogged? Do you think He disagreed with them?
Wasn’t it Paul that became ALL THINGS to all people that he might reach some? Religious types “scare” FB people and FB people have little to do with them. Now “their church” Christians do love to dialogue with their religious leaders and that is what I see.
I fit exactly what you oppose it seems to me and that’s OK I don’t take offense at that, and I hope you don’t either.
Let me do it my way and you do it your way.
That’s the problem as I see it. People aren’t seeking religion.
They seek friendship with “normal” people that has feelings and emotions just like there’s and then when they bond with one another, one may just happen to be very spiritually deep.
There is a time and a place for everything Tim.
Being religious on FB ain’t going to attract much other than, other religious people, that appear too good to be normal.
What we need is more “normal” acting people that are Christians.
Sure that’s my opinion just as yours is we need less normal people
and more religious people..
Normal people know they disagree with others.
There is nothing wrong with disagreeing over politics any more than
us disagreeing over Pro Basketball.
That’s how I see it and I wish I had a book to refer you to read…the problem is I haven’t written it yet!
Grace and peace Clay
Tim my brain started to think again on this subject. :)
Followers of the Christ have never had the opportunity to share the Gospel to the degree available to us today because of the internet.
Religious leaders have always “dominated” and “controlled” everything communicated down to “invite your friends” to church with you and we will evangelize them for you.
Religious leaders are being challenged on a lot of religious issues
by laity on what the scriptures teach, which has never been available to them before. we weren’t allowed to rise in turn and dialogue as the church did in 1 Corinthians 14:26ff. We too were
told to “HUSH” don’t interrupt “the preacher”
Religious leaders are getting nervous by this explosion of the availability for all of us being on the same ground, a level playing field you might say caused by the internet.
The NT with the new and better modern English translations has
made it possible for even high school drop outs to comprehend the
“message” delivered under the New and better Covenant.
PHD’s have no advantage when it comes to dialogging the “simple text.” Even the Greek and Hebrew can be explored by laity on several online sites.
Many of us were “pounded” stay with the “word” Clay.
Do not go beyond what’s written. 1 Cor 4
We began to read the text for ourselves and understand the word for ourselves just as preachers and elders did which caused us all to grow in our boldness for the Lord and the word.
When followers read such comments as Acts 4:13
“When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus” it made us realize that God has called us all to do his will and reach out to the lost. No longer is Christianity ran by Clergy and Clergy have the final
say as if they too were inspired.
As more and more followers discover this new freedom along with this equal responsibility more and more will act normal and present as well there position on politics just as you do with sports or any
other point where disagreement can occur. You said earlier sports was never a stumbling block or you said you have never know of it to be. Well you aren’t familiar with the sharp divisiveness between the Big Orange and the Commodores. The University of Tennessee
and the Vanderbilt Commodores. I would place the bitterness between these two rivals above the disagreements between any republican and democrat and they are Christians, elders and Pulpit preachers.
Then we have pro sports and some of those rivalries.
Nascar, Soccer, Football, Golf etc.
One of the first things a Christian learns is none of this is important
in the big picture and that includes politics.
Things are changing whether we like them or not.
We can go with the flow or we can cling bitterly to the past.
I’m for turning everyone loose FINALLY and stop trying to control them/us and jump in and defend the Democrats if that is your desire.
I’ll not hate you and I will not stop serving my savior because you do. Surely we all can rise above such trivia when it comes to what really is important in this short life. We simply must teach new followers not to get their feelings so easily hurt. Look at Jesus
and that’s our Goal, to mature into His likeness.
The church has tolerated those that still will not eat idol meat to this very day and it has virtually destroyed “US” Most have “been going to church” their whole life!
No they are not new converts and yes we need not make them stumble but there is a BIG difference Tim in those that may sincerely stumble over our freedoms and those that just love to run the church by “GRUMBLING” which is NOT the same as stumbling.
We have 75 yr old weaker brothers and it’s time to tell them, GROW UP. But that’s just me and we all come from our dysfunctional church family back grounds which gives us all various insights and understandings and yes even misunderstanding.
Let us seek unity of the Spirit in lieu of division in our flesh and spread the word to all the lost on FB.
Thanks for providing this means for us to all grow and learn how to love above our politics in spirit or anything else that ruffles our flesh.
Grace and peace Clay
Clay,
Have you ever heard someone say, “I can’t go to that church. I’m a Commodore fan”? If so, I’ll concede your point.
Politics divide. Politics bring out the worst in human nature. Christians fight and lie and participate in worldly behavior, all to try and control something that belongs to Satan.
All trying to do something that was never attempted by Christians in the Bible. Yes, the early Christians could have been very active in politics in Palestine. Yes, Christians in other towns could have been involved in their politics.
Instead, they lived as strangers and aliens. They lived as ambassadors of a kingdom that is not of this world.
In the world, not of the world. That’s who we should be.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Tim you cannot assume that followers DID NOT participate in Government simply because it is never mentioned at that specific
time.
I mean, you can do that but then you might also do that for sports
and a host of other unmentionables.
Paul taught:
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
Paul did not call us to leave the world or even ignore it.
Yes we are ambassadors of Christ.
Can I not be an ambassador for him and vote?
Can I not speak my mind and my heart concerning politics if Tim can
express his rival Pro team against it’s rival?
I said I have NEVER heard politics expressed from a Pulpit anywhere I assemble. That is one matter in and of it’s self.
It is another matter when I speak out against Abortion which is
MURDER on FB! Am I missing the point?
If one party’s platform is to allow murder and another party’s platform is to oppose it, tell me God does not expect me to speak
up on behalf of “one of these little ones”
If one party’s platform is to approve of Gay marriage and the other party’s platform is to oppose Gay marriage, tell me Tim God does
not expect me to speak up and point out that party’s evil platform
that openly promotes sin?
Either I am misunderstanding you or if I do understand you, I simply
cannot do as you advise and your argument that the scriptures teach what you imply is simply misguided.
Help me in my simple mind what you are trying to say?
Grace and peace Clay
Clay,
Look at the absence of references to current events. Jesus was asked about some, but replied with spiritual lessons instead. There are no exhortations to work through politics, not even the politics of the Jewish religious system.
I won’t repeat everything mentioned on this site about politics, but there’s plenty more to say. Paul did say “Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven.” (Philippians 3:19-20) We could turn that around as well: Their citizenship is on earth, but our mind is on earthly things.
No nation, no political party has their hands clean. Abortion is a major topic. The Democrats are wrong on that. The Republicans are wrong on others. And each party is full of people whose main goal is to get elected and obtain power for their party. It’s one thing to speak with a prophetic voice from outside the system. It’s quite another to become a part of it, for then what we say seems only to be part of the power struggle between the parties.
Speak on behalf of the little ones. Reach out to those considering abortion. Help find Christian families to adopt unwanted kids. Counsel and love those that are in bad relationships. We need to take action in a Christian way, a way that is distinct from the ways of the world. Let the Gentiles lord it over one another; we are called to a different way.
I’m sorry that you find my arguments misguided. Believe me, the feeling is mutual. You speak with the voice of the American culture, so I’ve heard it many times. I just don’t find that voice in the Bible.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Tim said:
Paul did say “Their mind is on earthly things. But our citizenship is in heaven.” (Philippians 3:19-20) We could turn that around as well: Their citizenship is on earth, but our mind is on earthly things.
Clay responds:
In my humble opinion you wrest this text from it’s context and attempt to prove too much from it Tim. Here it is in context:
17Brothers, join in imitating me, and keep your eyes on those who walk according to the example you have in us. 18For many, of whom I have often told you and now tell you even with tears, walk as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19 Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things. 20But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
Clay responds:
Keeping this in context you are implying that anyone that considers
Abortion a sin or a crime and dare state that openly and publicly in
opposition to our government that ……”Their end is destruction, their god is their belly, and they glory in their shame, with minds set on earthly things.”
No one minds anyone having an opinion Tim.
It’s when we distort the word to make “my opinion” superior to Clay’s opinion that we find our selves misleading. Sometimes I have done that innocently as well. I believe this to be innocent on your
part due to you wanting to prove your opinion.
Failing to find any mention of Christians opposing the Government
that they were under does not prove they did not, nor does it
prove it is wrong to do so.
It’s like Sports other than Paul’s mention running the race compared
to a physical runner your hard pressed to keep supporting the Spurs. LOL
I’ll end my responses to this subject, unless you ask me to continue.
Grace and peace, Clay
One final bit of clarification: Stating one’s opposition to abortion is NOT political. Stating support for one political party IS political.
Paul, writing to the Philippians, many of whom were probably Roman citizens, writes about citizenship in the context of things left behind for the sake of Christ. In that context, he contrasts those whose minds are set on earthly things with those who emphasize their heavenly citizenship. In that context, the inverse also makes sense: those who have their mind set on heavenly things would be contrasted with those who emphasize their earthly citizenship.
Clay, you started off by implying that those who abstain from politicking may not be pleasing to God. You also stated that my teaching is misguided. You’ve accused me of twisting Scripture. Then you find me to be promoting my opinion as superior?
It’s hard to be passionate about something without sounding “holier than thou.” I’m sorry if I’ve come off that way. I know that I often do, and I try to tone down my statements, especially because I know that just about everyone IS holier than me.
State your opinions. Just don’t question my pleasingness to God if I feel that the political arena isn’t the Christian arena.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
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