We’ve been talking about what we would change about the Bible. I find it to be an interesting idea to think about. However, we know that things don’t work that way. We are in no place to make changes to God’s Word.
The very points at which we wish to make changes to God’s Word are the points in which we need to change.
We need to place ourselves under the Word. Rather than seeking to master the Bible, our task is to learn to be mastered by the Bible. We have to humble ourselves and seek to grow in understanding rather than trying to mold the Bible to our views.
It’s a lesson I need to be reminded of time and again.
Glad you said that Tim. The question kinda bothered me. I kept thinking. What do I need to change about me. I think a fair question and the one you are really asking is, “What in the Bible bothers you?”
One of the things you spoke of the destruction of nations I understand as God’s judgment on the evil of that nation. Someone might ask why kill the children? Is it a good idea to leave children fatherless and motherless? Since God sees the eternal and children aren’t lost, doesn’t that change the way God would view their death anyway?
What is kinda hard to understand is how God allowed but regulated slavery. I may study this some more. I know some people were more what we call indentured servants. What bothers me is thinks that based on my values is inconsistent with what I view as right. God might take me to task like he did Job and ask me, “Where were you when I hung the earth?”
The Bible is an amazing book and my faith is not built on the idea that I must always be right about my interpretation of it to be saved. I still long for that, although I don’t hope to every achieve it. So I study to know God, and to understand his will for my life.
Thanks Joe. I probably wouldn’t have worded the question the way I did if I hadn’t been looking at the Conservative Bible Project website.
To be honest, I’ve come to accept the Old Testament killings; I may post on that some in the near future. I just know some people for whom those stories are a real stumbling block.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
I’ve always believed that the wiping out of entire nations is God’s way of showing love and mercy to the children of those nations.
“We must resist the temptation to read the Scriptures as if they were a religious flea market, with a basket of history and old doctrines here, from one end to the other. Some readers of the Bible turn it into little more than an anthology of proof texts assembled to support a system of theology. Others seek only ethical guidance, ransacking the Old Testament for stories of moral instruction. Still others look just for inspirational or devotional messages, for comforting promises and lessons for daily living. The result may be that we lose sight of the Bible’s essential unity and instead find only those theological, moral, devotional, or historical fragments we are looking for.
“But all human communities, including our own, live out of some comprehensive story that suggests the meaning and goal of history and that gives shape and direction to human life. We may neglect the biblical story, God’s comprehensive account of the shape and direction of cosmic history and the meaning of all that he has done in our world. If we do so, the fragments of the Bible that we do preserve are in danger of being absorbed piecemeal into the dominant cultural story of our modern European and North American democracies. And the dominant story of modern culture is rooted in idolatry: an ultimate confidence in humanity to achieve its own salvation. Thus, instead of allowing the Bible to shape us, we may in fact be allowing our culture to shape the Bible for us. Our view of the world and even our faith will be molded by one or the other: either the biblical story is our foundation, or the Bible itself becomes subsumed within the modern story of the secular Western world.”
Quoted from: Craig G. Bartholomew and Michael W. Goheen, “The Drama of Scripture: Finding Our Place in the Biblical Story,” (Grand Rapids: Baker Academic, 2004), 196-197.
Well its happened again. We seem to make up this complicated explanation of how to accept the brutality, slaughter, slavery, debauchery,
paganism and all the trappings of the human experience. Just accept the fact that humanity is helpless. That is why we needed a savior, for ALL mankind. That is why I am a universalist. What God did for one he did for all. Remember, saying its so doesn’t make it so. Search the scriptures, for true grace, love and peace. Its there if you just look…….
H.B., The problem is, this was not man acting on his own. This was man acting upon God’s instructions. We’re talking about the “divine experience,” not the human experience. So there’s no need to be so condescending toward others.
We have to see God’s love AND his justice, or we do not truly see God. His description of himself is key: “The LORD, the LORD, the compassionate and gracious God, slow to anger, abounding in love and faithfulness, maintaining love to thousands, and forgiving wickedness, rebellion and sin. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children and their children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation.” (Exodus 34:6-7)
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Tim glad you quoted Exodus 34. God’s children alright and for what purpose? I am not in that blood line. To say that is spiritual is denying what the verse says. To the Jews and Jews only. Is God setting up 21st century Christians? Or any Christians of any age? Its a rhetorical question. If you allow it, religion will squeeze you and tie you up in knots.
Religous groups do this to set themselves apart. Hey look at us, this is what we do and we are proud of it. Proud not to be independant thinkers,
proud to follow Jewish law in life today, proud to scowl at people who don’t think the way they do. No I don’t follow the bible in its implicit instructions. I don’t follow any dogma, that takes free will and individual freedom away. The true test of any Christian is what will he do for his fellow man. To serve others is what Christ led us to do.
Thru his instructions of love is the best example any Christian could demonstrate.
I’m sorry H.B.… I can’t make heads nor tails of that last comment. I guess it was over my head.
Tim its pretty simple from my point of view. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son. As a propitiation for sin, the sin debt has been paid for all. You and me, sir. We as human can stand up and die for another. In war, or in defending a helpless one against an adversary.
But God had a plan for all mankind which demonstrates his total love for all. As he demonstrated his love for us thru the placement of his son on the cross. We in turn demonstrates selflessneness in help of others…….
H.B., Saying you’re not of “that bloodline” also misses Paul’s point to the Romans concerning being heirs of the Abrahamic covenant. We’re heirs BY FAITH (which makes it a spiritual connection to the Jews, not blood). Besides, I believe that Ex 34:6-7 reveals a characteristic of God, how He is indeed gracious and merciful to the faithful and holding the feet of the guilty to the fire. They may turn and repent or they may not. The passing on of the “punishment” is not so much of inherited sin but of passing on of sinful attitudes and lifestyles. I see this exhibited in the difficulty in breaking the cycle of abuse in families (sexual, physical and mental). I’ve watched teens who bowed up under a father’s abuse later do the same things. We shouldn’t blame God for the evils of man, nor should we completely condemn what man has done in direct obedience to God (annihilation of some societies in the Promised Land). Yes, it’s difficult for us to understand, and maybe we won’t completely understand it until we reach heaven. My biggest struggle has turned out to be my desire to “understand” before I truly give myself over to God’s will. That really takes what I do out of the realm of faith and puts it into man’s works, since I’m doing it because I “figured it out.” Sometimes faith can only be “blind” to be faith at all.
Don’t know if this comment was on topic or not. Just kind of came out that way :-)
Barry: I guess we differ on one essential point. I don’t believe there is any covenants and that they have all ended. The relationship that God established thru covenants were with Israel only. All of the covenants that were in place were with Israel when Israel was set apart had ended with the offering of salvation to the gentiles. Jews and gentiles are in the same place now. No special people. The problem is that few people see that Paul was still trying to convince Jews about Christ. Even to the end of Acts in the last chapter and the last verses. Yes he is the apostle to the gentiles and that he magnifies his office. The office that the risen Christ gave him. This does make a difference in the relation with Jews and Gentiles. Why people want to be like Israel is obvious. They want the blessings promised to Israel. But the curse also comes if the law isn’t followed. This may be off the point but I want people to know that we aren’t under the law but grace. Grace gives us freedom. Why people don’t take this free gift is beyond me.
H.B., so you don’t believe in the New Covenant? Jews and Gentiles are in the same place, brought together in the same “tree” as Paul put it in Romans or the same “building” as he wrote to the Ephesians. In each case, it was the Gentiles that were brought into where the Jews were and not vice versa.
As per Exodus 34:7, God didn’t stop being God. He is who he was and will be who he is. That God is our God.
What you don’t seem to understand is that the New Testament wasn’t written in the order that we have the books. Many of Paul’s writings came BEFORE Acts was ever written. Why would Luke spend so much time describing Peter’s sermons, etc., if they had nothing to do with Christians?
Progressive revelation fails to recognize that even the gospels were written after Paul’s ministry was fairly advanced. They were written by Christians for Christians. Not for Jews. Christians. Us. You and me. Failure to recognize that is failure to see what Christianity really is. We can’t be Christians and not follow the teachings of Christ and the example of Christ.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer