Here’s where I venture into opinion in this series. Take it as such.
I think our culture’s views of drinking are messed up. Warped and distorted. That’s why you can’t just say, “Go ahead and drink.” In the comment section yesterday, I mentioned the article “Protestants and Catholics: Drunken Barbarians and Mellow Romans?” That article seems to explain part of it. Our culture has had influence from Germanic and Celtic cultures, more than the Latin or Mediterranean culture.
You see, I’ve lived in a Mediterranean culture, for that’s what Argentina is, to a large degree. I’ve seen people drink beer as a beverage and not as a stomach lubricant. I’ve seen diluted wine used as a regular part of meals. I’ve seen Christians drink freely with no shame and no drunkenness. I’ve known people who drank wine every day yet I never saw them anywhere close to intoxicated.
Unfortunately, their culture is changing, with the young people wanting to emulate what they see in American movies and TV. Society is becoming more mobile, and the social controls are breaking down, as they broke down here long ago.
It doesn’t have to be that way. But it is that way now. We deal with how things should be, and we deal with things as they are.
Drinking parties, keggers, night clubs and beer joints… none of those fit into what the Bible describes when it talks about enjoying God’s gifts with thanksgiving. If that’s all people know when it comes to alcohol, then it’s best to tell them to avoid it. Not because of the alcohol, but because of the abuse and because of the context. To me it’s analogous to Paul telling the Corinthians to eat meat in certain contexts and not in others. We can’t just give our young people a green light on drinking. It’s not that simple.
I also think that the church has made a mistake in abandoning that area to the devil. When the world twists and distorts what God has made, the church’s answer must be to show them what is right. For too long we allowed the world to be the only voice as to what sexuality was all about, and we’ve reaped the consequences. We’ve let the world dictate how discourse should be carried out, and Christians find it hard to deal courteously with those that disagree with them. We let the world have movies and television and are finding it terribly hard now to gain a footing in those areas. By letting the world define what the proper use of alcohol is, we’ve given the devil a formidable weapon.
When we present our young people with the traditional proof texts, it takes little for them to see them for the house of cards that they are. When we go against Paul’s advice and make “Don’t touch, don’t taste, don’t handle” our mantra, we fail to correct the excesses just as he told us we would.
My suggestions:
- We need to re-establish the social controls. You want to drink? You do it in a planned amount, in a Christian family atmosphere, where no one allows anyone else to get drunk. No drinking parties. No frat house keggers. No wild nights on the town. One drink as part of a meal, maybe two. Or half a glass before bed. Control. Community.
- We need to use the biblical teachings of self-control rather than the world’s teachings of “all or nothing.” That applies not only to alcohol. As someone has said, while only 20% of those who drink do so to excess, 99% of those who eat in this country eat to excess. We’ve made gluttony a joke and drunkenness a mortal sin. The Bible relates the two. We need to learn self-control in our eating, our drinking, our materialism, our political discourse, our anger, our envy, our quest for revenge, etc. (I should point out that “self-control” in the Bible is the self being controlled by the Spirit, not the self controlling the self. We need God’s help to dominate our human nature) “Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle” is the world’s way. We are called to something higher.
- We need to give Christians the right to make the choices that are best for them. Some will choose not to drink. They need to have that right. Some will choose not to eat red meat. They should have that right. Some will opt for a life of celibacy, others for a life of poverty. Each of these decisions can be made for godly reasons. We must respect peoples rights to choose these paths and respect the rights of others to choose to participate in eating, drinking, marriage or financial safety.
Thanks to all who have joined in in this discussion. Thanks to the many more who have read without commenting here. Tomorrow I’ll share some links for additional reading, just in case I haven’t totally exhausted your patience with this subject.
Previous posts in this series:
The Christian and Alcohol (Alcohol abuse)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 2 (Alcohol in the history of the U.S.)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 3 (Seeing what the Bible says about alcohol)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 4 (What the Pentateuch says about alcohol)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 5 (What the rest of the Old Testament says about alcohol)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 6 (What Proverbs and Ecclesiastes say about alcohol)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 7 (What the gospels say about alcohol)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 8 (What the rest of the New Testament says about alcohol)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 9 (Additional passages to consider)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 10 (Additional passages to consider)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 11 (Modern concepts forced onto an ancient text)
Tim,
These may be the best posts you’ve done yet. You were thorough and fair. The last post was the perfect climax. Thanks.
PS-You ought to put this into a book or at least tract-like publication.
I absolutely agree 100%. I have looked forward to your posts each day and am very glad that you chose to discuss this topic.
Tim, thanks for your insight and opinion on the subject. I agree with your findings, and logic. I know you have taken a beating during this discussion, and I thank you for stepping up to the plate.
I once had an eighteen year old ask me if I thought it was a sin to drink. I told him “no” I didn’t think it was a sin to drink, but I thought it was a sin to get drunk. Then I asked him if he had ever drank? He said, “No, I haven’t, statistics show that eight percent of Americans are alcoholics, (his research) and as long as I never try it I know I won’t be one of those eight percent.”
Either we’ve been set free or we haven’t. Free to love and enjoy our God and love and serve our neighbor without fear, or we’re still shackled to the life of the world. Banning drinking because one person fell off the wagon is like banning potlucks because the preacher can’t fit into his suits anymore. It’s not necessarily *wrong* to ban them, but it would be better to teach grace and freedom and responsibility.
“But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.” Paul, to the believers in Rome
“For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.” Paul, to the brethren in Galatia
“If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations–
‘Do not handle, Do not taste, Do not touch’ (referring to things that all perish as they are used)–according to human precepts and teachings? These have indeed an appearance of wisdom in promoting self-made religion and asceticism and severity to the body, but they are of no value in stopping the indulgence of the flesh.” Paul to the brethren at Colosse (emphasis mine)
“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from foods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the word of God and prayer.” Paul, to the evangelist Timothy (emphasis mine)
anyone who presses total abstention on everyone in all situations is a hypocrite unless they preach/practice total abstention from food.
let’s all starve to death!!
great study, Tim, I am glad someone did this.
Looking for some help on a few things…. When a group of guys gather before watching the big game and bust open a case of beer, there is an element there that I am having trouble putting my finger on. There is a element in that gathering that would not be there if they were passing out Coca-colas. What is that element? It could be a perception of masculinity (ie. we find the concept of a group of ladies doing this as somewhat peculiar, even comical). Is it a “party spirit” tied to drunkeness? Like I said, I’m not sure.
Secondly, why did they dilute the dinner wine? How does that relate to the fact that our society not only doesn’t dilute it, but in fact artificially elevates the intoxicating ability of those drinks?
A third question, related to culture, concerns social perceptions. In southern U.S. culture, in my perception, if people saw a preacher drinking alcohol it would be assumed he was a hypocrite and doing that which was sinful. The perception is that Christians don’t drink. It would seem the serviceman who has a beer with his buddies has created a lot of dissonance between his actions and their perceptions of his “Christianity.” How does this change the whole discussion about drinking alcohol?
My fourth question concerns “wine” and “beer.” In our culture they seem to have different “moral” imprints. The image of “wine” is the table drink… the image of beer is the beer joint. Although both have the corresponding opposite (beer at a meal; the “wino” on the street) the dominant images are different. Why is that? How does that effect culture discussions? Is that just me?
These are intriguing questions for me right now. I am curious about others reflections.
If you all are still needing some rain in the panhandle, we have a bunch we can send you. Hope life is good for you and the family!
Danny
Danny, I think you’ve asked some really good questions, and I hope my thoughts might add to the conversation Tim’s encouraging us to have here.
I’m not sure about the party spirit around the ball game. I think you’re right about the masculinity, although my long experience in food service has shown me that groups of women knock it back just as much — they just don’t need a sporting event for an excuse to get together! :) But that kind of event definitely calls for discernment and self-control, and a dependence upon the Lord for our identity, rather than particular external markers such as a beer (or a Bible) in our hands.
Second question: I think they diluted the dinner wine for two reasons: to avoid intoxication and because it lasted longer that way. Remember that in ancient societies, approximately 90-95% of the population lived “from hand to mouth,” with 3-5% above that being skilled laborers/artisans, and 2-5% being wealthy patrons. The vast majority of people would have to be very careful with their wine supply. That’s another reason why the wedding at Cana is so gracious! That’s 180 gallons of wine given to a little out-of-the-way town in Galilee — a HUGE economic boon.
Third Question: Like I mentioned towards Joe on the last post, allowing the world’s preconceptions of Christianity to define how we actually live out the Christian life is fraught with danger. I’d rather talk to those people about the huge blessings of freedom in Christ, because they’re laboring under an evil delusion that (as Tim as so wisely pointed out) “Do not taste, do not touch, do not handle” is the Christian way. It is not, and that false teaching does as much to hinder the way of Christ as any other false teaching. Since such rules, as Paul says, are utterly useless for preventing fleshly sins, we should rather share the truth about the true freedom that is in Christ.
Fourth question (you said you were interested in our reflections! :) )
I think the contrasting images you propose are far less prevalent than you might think. I think you’re closer to the mark with your first idea, that in our culture, beer is much more masculine than wine. Men who drink wine are considered “metrosexual” or “effete snobs.” Beer has fewer negative social stigmas that way, so that might explain its greater popularity.
Danny,
I think much of the beer culture in this country is ungodly. I hope you’ll take the time to read the article I put the link to; that helped me understand a lot of it. I know that beer can be drunk in a normal way. My in-laws used to split a can of beer on a hot day; neither had any interest in drinking more than that. I’ve been at Christian parties in Latin America where two bottles of beer were brought in for 20 people. I personally don’t trust the “party atmosphere” that you describe. It seems to be too strong a link to the pagan use of beer.
As to the dilution of wine, I can testify that I much prefer it diluted. That’s the normal way to drink it in Argentina, served with “soda” (seltzer). Maybe one part wine and two parts soda. The links I provided before that referred to dilution spoke of cost and the ability to quench thirst without drunkenness.
As to the third question, like it or not, that perception is slowly changing. Like many doctrines not well-grounded in scripture (if I may be so blunt), forced abstinence is dying out. Younger generations don’t buy it. Still, sensitivity is needed. When I lived in a home owned by a congregation that I knew looked down on drinking, I never brought a drop of alcohol into that house. I was gifted a bottle of wine in Argentina during that time and was pained to have to leave it with the one who gave it to me, because I wouldn’t trample my brothers’ opinion in that way. (OK, we had some there, but I couldn’t bring the bottle back as they had intended) I fear, however, that we’ve let the weaker brothers run the church and have ignored Paul’s admonitions in Colossians 2 about not letting others judge us.
As for wine and beer, I think it is cultural. I refer you again to the article on barbarians and Romans. (Though beer may be “manly,” I can’t stand the stuff)
Thank you Danny for these questions and the ones you mailed me before. Working through such things helps me to grow. I hope all of us have found growth in this discussion, whatever our conclusions may be. We need to hear multiple voices on these issues.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Thanks, Tim. I have found your study quite interesting … and very hard to argue with! Thanks for all your preparation and effort in this series. Our congregation is still struggling against a stigma placed upon us by other local congregations — 20 plus years ago the leadership here decided they would not publicly condemn drinking alcohol. So other local congregations decided not to fellowship with us. In the last 6 years of worshiping with this lovely group of people, I have yet to hear any discussion whatsoever about drinking at all — let alone anyone condoning OR condemning it. It seems not to be an issue at all, I guess each person individually makes their own decisions about it. Seems to me, that’s how it should be.
Thanks, everyone, for the comments. Lisa, I think the situation you describe is as it should be: each man free to make up his mind based on Scripture.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Tim,
You will be happy to know I don’t have a problem with the majority of this post. (((SMILE)))
I do have a problem with some of the conclusion being drawn from it. I don’t think we can just say, “Go ahead and use your judgement.” Until culture changes we need to guard against the corruption that effects peoples lives. We can’t just change culture.
It is not 20% who drink to excess. It is 20% who are diagnosed as addicts. 48% of 21 year olds who drink are know to binge drink. That percents starts to decline at that point but many people occaionally binge drink but are not considered alcoholics.
I have no problem from a sin standpoint with dilluted drink. If the drink is not strong enough to make us drink without eating it in excess then it is not a sin from my understanding. It is not the presence of some alcohol that is the problem. It is the presence of alcohol in degrees that can causes one to be drunk.
I also think we must relook at the topic of what is drunk. The word in Ephesians 5:19 means to begin to be softened. It is an inceptive verb, dealign with the process not the end result. Therefore, it is far from what we think of as a drunk. I know people whom function in many ways drunk. However, they are still drunk- softened – influenced by the alcohol.
So what is drunk? Well I contend that we have to exceed the cultural and legal defintion. If .10% is too drunk to drive, then it is too drunk to do anything important. What is the level of blood alcohol when one is guilty of Public intoxication. We must also make sure the alcohol is have NO influence in our life. It is having no impact on our thinking.
We also have to understand the question of influence, and causing people to stumble. The weaker brother was Paul’s concern. He said, “I won’t drink wine if it causes my brother to stumble.” It does cause people to stumble.
Gluttony. Some have thrown up the smoke screen of gluttony. How much does the Bible say about this???? There are 4 text and all of them mention drunkeness. Two are false assertions that Jesus is a glutton. The other two are in proverbs when it talks of a person who drinks and eats to excess. Now if you want to equate two texts in Proverbs to the many texts which speak of the evils of wine go ahead, but the arguement is useless.
I’d still like to hear your response to the Bible condemning Drinking Parties too. I think you hit it some but I want people on here to see that it is not just drunkeness but also drinking that can be a sin.
Great post, learning a lot!!….peace…
Trent
I appreciate everyone’s insights on the questions I asked above. Thanks.
I will add my name to the list. Based upon what you have wrote Tim, I’ll join with Joe P. when it comes to diluted wine at the table… particularly if in a culture where that is the norm. These posts have helped me put that into a different perspective in terms of scripture. I still have some questions and differences with some of your conclusions, but you have given me much more to work with in answering them as well. Thanks!
I do think one of the challenges to your position is that at sometimes it seems to require identifying exactly when a person becomes “drunk.” I think that is going to be hard to do in a philosophical/abstract manner. Even culturally there is some struggle… is it the perceptions of the person, the community, the laws? This to me is a “sticking point,” although there may be a perspective I am missing.
As we look at this issue, one of the challenges for Americans (Westerners??) is our tendency to cast ethics in personal terms (ie. what is autonomously right/wrong for me to do). Romans 14, I Cor. 8 and other less explicit passages highlight there is also “community ethics”… a communal right/wrong (ie. what is my responsibility to those I live around). The reason personal ethics are dominant, in my opinion, is that we perceive faith/religion/slavation in personal terms…(ie. What can I do/not do and still go to heaven?). It seems to me we have trouble evaluating if something is truely right/wrong because of its effect on others, the perception of others, and its place in culture (which is also an “others” thing). I really appreciate that you have ventured into the “realm” of communal ethics in this post and on other ocassions, certainly more than most discussions on this subject.
Thanks for your efforts.
You’ve had an interesting series on this topic. I have not commented on it, because I don’t drink. I just don’t like the taste of alchohol. But I have appreciated the series.
As the daughter of an alcoholic mother, I’d like to add my two cents worth.
Alcoholism was a major part of my childhood. Mom said that the first drink she ever took had her hooked. She was a child at the time and many times said that she could remember craving that sip for several years. Her desire for alcohol never went away and played a part in her death at the age of 38.
Whatever side you happen to be on, when it comes to this issue, the cold hard fact is that there are some people who will take one drink and will be hooked forever. Because of their weakness, alcohol will ruin their lives and affect the lives of the ones they love (and those that love them) for generations to come. If a Christian wants to drink moderately in their own home and can handle it, then that is between them and God. I don’t condemn their decision. However, a Christian who continually drinks and allows themselves to get drunk has no right to bear the name. Just my opinion.
I appreciate this series Tim and I appreciate you. ;)
Thanks Paula. Such stories have a place in this discussion.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Excellent series, Tim. Interesting comments. Thanks for all of it!! I’ve never cared for the taste of beer or wine so I don’t struggle with this. I give people the same freedom Jesus gives them with regard to their drinking. I don’t allow drinking in our home and gave both of our children $1,000 in cash on their 18th birthday for not drinking. The daughter enjoys a glass of wine now and then but she waited until long after that 18th birthday and is one of the more spiritually mature and socially responsible people I’ve ever known.
I commend this entire series and agree with Mark Edge’s publication idea. You have done a nice job of “letting the Bible speak”, which is exceedingly difficult with this hot button issue.
I was hoping you would include your Argentine experience in your opinions. It is very easy for us to approach the Scriptures and these problems from “American” eyes and perspectives.
The tie to food is INCREDIBLY valid. We are so prone to excess in our culture at so many levels. Our teaching can use an infusion of passion for self-control, discipline, patience, and faithfulness, not as works based things but as fruits of the Spirit where we clearly demonstrate and model that this is what a Spirit-filled believer looks like.
Peace,
Donnie Baisden
Did you guys discuss this text?
Deuteronomy 14
Tithes
22 “You shall tithe all the yield of your seed that comes from the field year by year. 23And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, 25then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses 26and spend the money for whatever you desire—oxen or sheep or wine or (((( strong drink,)))) whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household. 27And you shall not neglect the Levite who is within your towns, for he has no portion or inheritance with you.
I do not believe God is encouraging them to get drunk.
But I cannot see the reluctance of those that just cannot accept what God approves.
When we mislead followers by twisting the text, why listen to us over something God does diaspprove of?
Grace and peace Clay
First of all, 5 stars to this series. I think you’ve handled it with grace. It is clear that this is a spirit-led discussion, and I’m glad to have found one of those on the internet.
I think a lot of what you said regarding teenagers and abstinence is very relevant to the issues a lot of parents face – how much of the pagan culture to expose their children to. You are right in saying that by sheltering young people from hot button issues and vices that we disagree with, they will discover it for themselves and at that point the discussion will be dominated by the world, which as you said, “gives the devil a formidable weapon.”
Like the alcohol itself, the teaching of such a subject should be treated with temperance. I wonder if you could touch on the balance that must be struck between addressing the subject honestly and without pretense and overindulging and cheapening it. This is a hard line to walk, and as a new youth minister I struggle with how to address subjects like these, especially when dealing with parents and other influences that would rather not see the topic brought up at all unless it is a harsh condemnation.
It’s bedtime – I hope that was all coherent enough!
Teenage drinking is rife here in Australia. My 14 year old daughter is in a play with 14 and 15 year olds. She has chosen not to go to the afterparty tomorrow as all the boys in the play drink alcohol and a couple of them have boasted of binge drinking. We drink alcohol at home (despite having alcoholic parents – both my DH’s parents were alcoholic and my father was). However I do think we are teaching her the right values wrt alcohol.
Greg, that’s an interesting tactic. I could give my kids an I.O.U. :-)
Clay, This passage was discussed in the post and comments section of the fourth post.
Grace and peace,
Tim
Your suggestion, Robert, for additional discussion is a good one. I may let us all take a break from this, then come back and hit some of the additional things that have come up in the comments.
As for people not wanting this topic discussed, believe me, I have postponed this series a long time. I knew some of the comments I would receive, although I was surprised that they were far fewer than I expected. (Time will tell about future backlash, of course) Sadly, it’s easier just to avoid topics that people have strong emotions about. (I’m going to have to write about ____ sometime, but I’m just not up to it yet. Don’t bother trying to fill in the blank; that was just kind of a note to myself).
Blessings on you and your ministry Robert.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Wendy, sadly the sellers of alcohol have figured out how to reach out to a younger market, a market that is also more vulnerable to addiction. (which for them means long-term clients) How do churches in general address this topic in Australia?
Tim, sadly I don’t think it is addressed much at all. I haven’t heard any direct teaching on the topic.
Speaking of the younger generation of Christians, and their abuse of alchol. I have discussed this with some of that crowd who go to drinking parties, and show up in church the next day as if nothing has happened. Well let me change that statement a little, they know it was wrong , but it doesn’t matter. This not only applies to the young, but older church going drinkers as well. Let’s look at why they say it doesn’t matter. Because they are taught more and more especially in “the church of Christ” You are saved by the grace of God alone, you can do nothing on behalf of your salvation, it has been done by Jesus Christ. so just accept it. I have heard some say ” I know it was a sin, but don’t the blood cover all sins”?
I believe Paul confronted this question.
Rom:5:20: Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
Rom:6:1: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2: God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
When we teach salvation by grace we need to recognize, that we are to try our best to live as God has commanded, sure we will most certainly fail some if not most of the time, but that is the time when God’s Grace kicks in, not before we even try to live as God has commanded, if God’s Grace covers us no matter what, the written scriptures become of no value.
The churches need to teach once again that “Good Works” do have a bearing on salvation, we can’t go on living the same way we were before baptism, and expect to receive the inheritance, promised if we accept change.
So when we start blaming the younger generation for things they do, maybe we should look at what they have been taught, what we taught them.
Mt:7:21: Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
I’d like to address Clayton’s text.
I think for me Clayton has hit on the one issue that still gives me questions. That is what is “strong drink” in this text. It is obviously approved of. So what does that mean?
A. Do we for sure know what the definition of the word is. I know that the most likely definition is an alcoholic drink. The sources of my research equated it with something like beer. However, I have read other sources who questioned this.
B. Is it possible or likely that they diluted it? We know this was a common practice.
C. Did they simply consume it in small quantity. Tim pointed out under the pentatuach we have no prohibition as a sin against alcohol nor drunkeness.
The question comes down to one in which you have one scripture that shows an approval of strong drink. We aren’t sure 100% what it was. If you disagree with this then please tell me what it was and it’s alcohol content. We also aren’t sure how they consumed it. Was it diluted or drunk in small quantity.
Then we have to balance this against the other side of the coin.
Wine is mocker.
Strong drink is a brawler.
whoever is deceived by it are not wise.
In the same text it says wine
causes
WOE
SORROW
CONTENTIONS,
COMPLAINTS,
WOUNDS,
RED EYES,
We are told to avoid a certain kind of wine!!!
Do not look on the wine when it is red,
When it sparkles in the cup,
When it swirls around smoothly;
This wine is the wine that causes these ailments. We all know what kind that is. It is a strong drink, or strong wine that is not diluted. The text then describes one who suffers the symptoms and self inflicted pain of drunkenness.
Now I want you all to note that he commands us to avoid completely this wine. To not even look upon it.
The Christian who says I am under the New Covenant must then consider. That the word Drunk in Eph 5:19 means “to begin to be softened.” It is an inceptive verb that deals with the process and not just the final state of being drunk as we would call it. The text is contrasting one person who gets high or a buzz on wine with another who gets spiritually high by worshipping God. EPH 5:19
We are told in I Peter4 to no longer be like pagans who pursue “drinking parties.” Not it doesn’t say drunk. It says a drinking party.
I have to be certain I am not failing in my ability to be sober minded. I have to be certain I am not causing others to stumble, nor hurting my influence. I have to consider if I am putting the kingdom of God first by choosing to participate in a practice that is questionable in our society, and has so many know negatives.
I also have my own judgement that examines the fruit of alcohol in our world and see far more evil than good. God commands to avoid every form of evil. My friend alcohol is responsible for much evil, pain, heartache, and destruction.
So how do we balance this out. I have one text which I have no certainty of how they used the drink in question even if I grant that is would as strong as a bottle of Jack Daniels. Which we know they couldn’t produce at this time. Regardless, so we grant they drank some of it.
Does this counter act all the other scriptures, warnings, even the stories of Noah, Lot, and many other accounts of alcohol being used for bad.
My friends we don’t have to have a “Thou shalt Not” to know what is best. I pray and plead that we honor God, protect our families and influence and take the high road.
The Christian who abstains will have no regret. The Christian who partakes risks falling into sin, and the promotion of evil.
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Tim, I’ve written a few posts on this myself. I’d like to suggest a few points for your consideration.
1. How strongly do you think the Bible condemns gluttony? I don’t advocate gluttony, of course, but if you look into it you would be surprised at the paucity of Biblical references, as opposed to drinking and drunkenness, I think.
2. You should do a word study on ‘self-control’ – the word translated ‘temperance’ in the KJV. It has to do more with self-denial than self-control.
3. Drunkenness is condemned in such passages as the works of the flesh passage in Gal 5. Consider all of the other works of the flesh in the list. Is it conceivable that any of them can be practiced “in moderation”? It seems to me that the condemnation of drunkenness is much more far-reaching than most think. The difference, it seems to me, is the difference between drinking for effect and drinking for hydration. If you are after the ‘buzz’, even in a small way, you are exhibiting a work of the flesh, not the fruit of the Spirit.
FWIW… don’t know if I’ll have a chance to come back here and interact, but thought that you might consider these thoughts along with all you’ve done already.
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
Don,
I’ll answer a bit, even though you’re not coming back. :-)
1) The concept of gluttony appears a lot more than the word does, many more than the 4 times mentioned above. I’ll confess that I haven’t done the in-depth study that the subject requires. Brother Richard Mansel has a good article on the subject: http://www.forthright.net/square_one/are_we_guilty_of_gluttony.html
2) I have studied self-control and plan to post on it soon. The three times that the word appears in the New Testament do seem to speak of “denial of self” as Jesus spoke of. It’s quite a leap to connect that to abstinence, however, unless we’re willing to make the same application in other areas where self-control is required.
3) I don’t propose drunkenness in moderation. I haven’t met any Christian who does. I do believe, however, that Christians can have parties without having debauchery, that they can enjoy sexual relations without falling into sexual immorality or orgies, that they can have zeal and loyalty without factions, etc. So if you were somehow trying to make this analogous to rightly enjoying God’s gift of wine, yes, I do believe those things can be practiced in moderation.
Read the Old Testament descriptions of drinking (even if you want to think of it as grape juice). This goes beyond hydration. God endorses enjoying your food and drink. Do a study of Ecclesiastes and you’ll be hard-pressed not to be convinced of that.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Hi Tim
I just mean that I don’t intend to get into a back and forth on this…
Thanks for the response and the suggestion of Ecclesiastes. I’ll take a look at it from that perspective.
I don’t hold to the two-wine theory, BTW, but I do hold to total abstinence, if not to prohibition as well.
With respect to “enjoying sexual relations without falling into sexual immorality…” sexual relations isn’t the issue. Sexual relations within the bond of marriage isn’t fornication. It seems a little disingenuous to substitute other words for the things specified as works of the flesh.
But enough of that, I said I wouldn’t be trying to get into a discussion!
Maranatha!
Don Johnson
Jer 33.3
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