We now turn our attention to the gospels. What do these presentations of the story of Jesus tell us about wine and other alcoholic drinks?
- John the Baptist lived his life without drinking wine nor strong drink. Jesus, on the other, partook of them freely, so much so that he was accused of being “a drunkard.” (Matthew 11:19)
- Jesus’ first miracle involved turning water into wine at a wedding. (John 2) It was fine wine, of a sort that usually is served before the wedding guests have “well drunk” (verb coming from the word for an intoxicant).
- Jesus described the fermentation of “new wine” becoming “old wine.” (Luke 5:37-39) He used this as a common example that his listeners would have been familiar with. Note that he recognizes in this parable that people preferred vintage wine to new wine.
- The “fruit of the vine” used at Passover would have been wine. This was customary at Passover, and there are Jewish writings from the time which refer to wine as “fruit of the vine.” [Wayne Jackson gives a brief study of this in the Christian Courier] On the night of his crucifixion, Jesus says that he would not drink of this wine again until he drank it in his Father’s kingdom. (Matthew 26:29)
- The gospels record no sayings from Jesus praising wine nor condemning wine; he does refer to drunkenness in a negative way in one parable. (Matthew 24:49; Luke 12:45) The teaching of the gospels is very similar to that of the Law of Moses in this regard.
We do well to keep in mind that wine in the time of the New Testament was usually diluted, much like many people do with table wine today. See the comments section of the post “The Church’s Witness to the Responsible Use of Wine” for an excellent discussion of how wine was consumed in Jesus’ day. As we read about Jesus and his disciples drinking wine, it helps to bear in mind that what they drank was almost certainly diluted wine.
[I’m largely refraining from commenting on comments, trying to present my thoughts bit by bit. Toward the end of the series, I’ll try and be more interactive.]
Previous posts in this series:
The Christian and Alcohol (Alcohol abuse)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 2 (Alcohol in the history of the U.S.)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 3 (Seeing what the Bible says about alcohol)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 4 (What the Pentateuch says about alcohol)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 5 (What the rest of the Old Testament says about alcohol)
The Christian and Alcohol, Part 6 (What Proverbs and Ecclesiastes say about alcohol)
“As we read about Jesus and his disciples drinking wine, it helps to bear in mind that what they drank was almost certainly diluted wine.”
I don’t know where you get that from the bible, Is that the same place where we get instrumental music is a dreadful sin?
Was watered down wine what Jesus made for his first miracle ? could there be another reason for adding water to wine? would watered wine make the disadvantaged forget their problems?
Tim, lets take a look at what Isaiah said about watered down wine.
Isa:1:19: If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:
20: But if ye refuse and rebel, ye shall be devoured with the sword: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
21: How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers.
Isa:1:22: Thy silver is become dross, thy wine mixed with water:
Tim do you really think Jesus and the apostles used watered down wine? I really doubt it.
That is certainly your right, Laymond, but it doesn’t make historical sense, for several reasons:
1) Wine wasn’t cheap. It wasn’t worth its weight in gold or anything, but it wasn’t cheap. Diluting it was sensible for the 95% of the populace who lived from hand-to-mouth.
2) Wine was, and is, a strong intoxicant. Watering it down allows you to drink more, enjoy the flavor, quench your thirst, and still not get drunk. Would they water it down for a wedding party? No. Would they water it down for a religious festival? No. What do those things have in common? Celebration! But for daily living — yes, the common people of the ancient Near East in the time of Jesus drank diluted wine with their meals.
That is simple history — how it relates to the Scriptural narrative is another question.
Nick, I agree with everything you said, you just seem not to understand what I said. Look at the question I asked “could there be another reason for adding water to wine?”
Nick said, “Wine wasn’t cheap. It wasn’t worth its weight in gold or anything, but it wasn’t cheap. Diluting it was sensible for the 95% of the populace who lived from hand-to-mouth.”
“Would they water it down for a religious festival? No. ”
The very answer I sought, to my question.
Was the last supper a part of a religious festival? I thought it was.
Tim said “As we read about Jesus and his disciples drinking wine, it helps to bear in mind that what they drank was almost certainly diluted wine.”
I don’t know where Tim found (in the bible) where Jesus and his disciples were sitting around drinking wine except during this festival.
Availability of year round, world-wide, un-fermented grape juice? Not even possible until the 1800’s.
Grape harvest in Palestine – July through August. Rest of the year?
Preserving food by canning – Nicolas Appert (for Napoleon)– 1810
Pasteurization – Louis Pasteur (for winemakers)– 1862
Tim your implication is that the word “well drunk” in the story of Jesus turning water into wine mean they were drunk. Do you believe this? Is this what you believe? PLease respond.
In my undergraduate Gospel of John class when we came to the wedding story in Cana where the water is turned into wine, the instuctor spent the next three days discussing the ethics of Christians consuming ANY alcoholic beverage based on this passage (he was against Christian consumption of alcohol). He completely missed the point and so does everyone else when they try to use this passage to either support or condemn the issue. The issue is an ethical issue and therefore to move towards a resolution as to whether a Christian can ethically consume any alcoholic beverage we must begin with a sound theology of who the Christian is as a new creation in Christ and what that entails. At the end of the day I believe there will still be good reason for both “yes” and “no” to the issue and therefore we seem to come back to the question of conscience.
Grace and peace,
Rex
Laymond: There is a difference between giving a historical reference and making a text into a command. If I said, “Because Jesus and his disciples probably drank diluted wine, that means everyone has to,” your first comment would apply. As to the later comment about “Jesus and his disciples… sitting around drinking wine,” we have every reason to believe that Jesus and his disciples drank wine regularly. That also was the custom of the day.
Joe: Man, you are really argumentative. My implication? I’m commenting on the meaning of the word, which implies that what was being consumed was alcoholic. John doesn’t say they were drunk; the steward says that fine wine is usually brought out before people were in this state. It’s his comment, not John’s. And he doesn’t even apply it to the present situation, but to what usually goes on at weddings. Brother, if we’re scared to discuss the meaning of words, we’re really in trouble when studying the Bible.
Tim,
I am not afraid to discuss words and their meaning. I differ with your article. I don’t even have time to point out all the weakness I see.
I do know this.
The guests had consumed all the wine the people had. This would usually imply that they had consumed what people thought was suffecient and that they had made reasonable preparations. They had therefore consumed a lot. If this was strong drink then they were most likely drunk. If not then we have no problem. People who assume that they were drinking the standard fare of wine that we have today would have to think there were at minimum a few people smashed or headed that way. If Jesus gave more people alcohol then he was contributing to their sin.
Hab 2:15 says “Woe to him who gives drink to his neighbor,
£Pressing him to your bottle,
Even to make him drunk,
That you may look on his nakedness!
Now if you want to use that last verse as out go ahead. In my view anyone who gives a drunk or a person becoming drunk more drink is wrong. In fact in our nation it is a crime. Therefore we put Jesus in the position of being a sinner if we say he was giving people more alcohol to drink.
BTW the word doesn’t necessarily mean anything to do with alcohol it means satiated or full. It was used in the context of alcohol but not always.
Tim, I assumed you were speaking of the one time that is spoken of in the bible, when you said Jesus and the apostles ” almost certainly” drank diluted wine. Reference to a specific event and not “historical social reference” . and I don’t know that “almost certainly” and “probably” are interchangeable.
Laymond, that’s what assumptions will do.
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Joe,
I hope you’ll find the time to discuss all the weaknesses you see in this article and that you’ll do so with calm and with logic. I am notified by e-mail when comments are made, so feel free to do this at any point in the future. I’d be interesting in reading. (I’m still waiting, by the way, for the verses that continually condemn wine and strong drink in the Bible… at your convenience)
It’s worth looking at the 7 uses of the word “methuo” in the New Testament. It’s true that some commentators feel that this merely meant satiated; some argue the same for 1 Corinthians 11. The prevailing sense of the word makes the most sense to me in this context.
I think that part of the problem is that we take modern definitions of “drunkenness” and apply them to an ancient setting. We begin with what U.S. Protestantism says about the issue and read that back into the text. There is a difference between “drunkenness” as a lifestyle and being intoxicated at a wedding feast.
The text from Habakkuk needs no out… it desperately needs a context. The passage is talking about people taking advantage of others. If Jesus was getting these people drunk to take advantage of them, you make an excellent point. I have trouble picturing that in John 2.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
p.s.—Sorry your comment was slow to post; the spam filter caught it.
Timothy if you think being intoxicated doesn’t count as drunkenness then as far as I am concerned you have no credibility. If that isn’t what you are saying then please let me know I’m wrong. That is what I read in what you said. I do not say this with joy in my heart but sorrow that one of my brothers has fallen into promoting sin.
I am aware that the text says they were getting people drunk and that they were using them to take advantage of them. However, is it okay to get someone drunk anyway. I guess it is if you don’t think getting drunk is a sin.
Not sure why you think my posts lack calm and logic. If you want to read more of my views see my articles on joepalmer.wordpress.com
Shannon what you are saying has been proven to be wrong. You can read william Patton’s book on Bible Wines. The name alludes me now. One of the ways putting new wine into new wine skins is mentioned in the Bible. They also could prevent it from fermented by reducing it down so that the sugar content was too high. It could also be stored in a cold spring.
Joe,
First off, the comment about calm and logic was not meant as a put down nor as a reflection on your posts. It’s merely a recognition of what often takes place in these kinds of discussions.
Second, please avoid speculating about my beliefs. I know it’s not easy, but you’ve done it several times during this series.
What I’m questioning/wondering about drunkenness is how far to apply modern definitions to ancient situations. I’ve heard brothers want to use blood alcohol levels, for example, to discuss what is sinful and what isn’t.
What I’m beginning to suspect from this study of the Bible (I know you think I’m merely operating off of preconceived notions, but I’m actually trying to work through all of this as we go), what I’m beginning to suspect is that what the Bible condemns is: (1) Drinking to get drunk; and (2) drunkenness as a lifestyle.
[I’d like to ask you to help me reason through this, get help from all the readers. If I’ve lost credibility for having questions about this, so be it. Please risk violating Proverbs and continue to speak to this fool.]
Consider gluttony. Is everyone who overeats once a glutton? Does every potluck make half the congregation a sinner? Or is there a lifestyle issue that is being condemned, rather than just overeating?
The Bible speaks no condemnation on Noah nor Lot for their drunkenness. Noah shows no remorse, no conscience of guilt. He announces punishment on his son and grandson for “looking on his nakedness”; if his drunkenness was sinful, shouldn’t he have accepted some of the blame?
I am NOT promoting drunkenness. Setting out to get drunk is wrong. Drinking irresponsibly is wrong. What happens today is very different from what went on in John 2. I’m saying that when the Bible says that wine gladdens man’s heart, I think it quite possible that it’s referring to the effects of the alcohol in the wine. (Note that the term in Ecclesiastes 9:7 is the same as 1 Samuel 25:36, 2 Samuel 13:28 and Esther 1:10)
Rather than argue, let’s reason together. Read the passages. Think about what they are saying. There’s no winners and losers here. We all win if we understand the truth more.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
William Patton’s Bible Wines can be read here.
This book came out in 1874. There’s a reason why people continue to reference a book written almost 150 years ago, one that isn’t quoted by reference works today. Its arguments have not been sustained by almost a century and a half of research.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
I said you lost credibility because you try to define intoxication as not being equal to drunkenness. That is an abusrd thought in my view. So much so that I think in this instance I can quote a text that you won’t debate.
Eph 5:19 Do not be drunk with wine…. It doesn’t say drunkenness it says drunk.
OK, so you would rather argue than reason. It was worth a try. I’m through. God bless you.
Amazing Tim you think quoting the Scriptures is arguing. I had asked the question to clarify if you were saying getting drunk is okay, as long as you don’t follow a lifestyle of drunkenness. It sounds to me that this is exactly what you are saying.
How is it not reasoning to point to the scriptures.
OK, Joe. If I respond to this verse, please respond to all of the verses that I’ve asked you to look at.
I said that there is a difference between a lifestyle of drunkenness and intoxication at a party. Didn’t even say that one was a sin and the other wasn’t. Paul did tell the Ephesians to not be drunk, just as he told them to not be angry. Christians should seek neither of those states.
What I tried to say, though you seem to know better than I what I want to say, is that modern definitions of intoxication may not be God’s definition. You said that “gladden man’s heart” can’t refer to what we call “getting a buzz.” I said that it is POSSIBLE, then quoted several passages for you to look at. How many did you look up? Out of this whole series (please be honest here), how many passages have you taken the time to look up?
When you are ready to talk about Proverbs 31:6-7, when you can provide the list of verses that “continually” condemn wine, when you want to discuss Ecclesiastes 9:7 in the light of 1 Samuel 25:36, 2 Samuel 13:28 and Esther 1:10, then I’ll know you are willing to reason.
Grace and peace,
Tim Archer
Proverbs 31:6,7 Kings don’t drink wine, it is only for the person who wants to be sedated. The whole context is to say that a King should not drink. So this text does not commend wine.
I have read your verses many of them. I can’t say all. With all the posts and all the responses. I can’t say I have read them all. But I am serious and I mean you no harm. I am concerned for your soul and the influence of your teaching.
I just simply wanted you to agree with me that getting drunk alone is a sin. I am deeply concerned that you are going a direction to state that the occasional binge is no big deal.
I read all your verses. I see people got drunk. I don’t agree that all wine gets you drunk. Sorry I believe that wine which has it’s strength removed due to dilution is fine. I can’t say that alcohol in small quantities is damnable. I will say it is unwise, and in our current situation unnecessary, divisive, and harmful to our influence.
Regardless of what you think of me. I want you to know my heart is bewildered by your teaching by my actions are motivated by love.
Ask your boss what I said. I told him that.
Tim
I can’t find the verse on gladening a man’s heart again apologies as I get lost looking them up. I don’t get the auto reminders like you do.
I have studied this a lot in the past and even this week. I don’t know all the answers. I do know what the results are and the safe course. There are too many warning to play with this and take a chance. It has too much evil.
Understand that I am not your enemy.
“The occasional binge is no big deal”? Have you read ANYTHING that I’ve written? The occasional binge?
Go up about six inches. I wrote: “Setting out to get drunk is wrong. Drinking irresponsibly is wrong. ” Does that sound like I’m saying “Go ahead, have an occasional binge”?
Please, brother. STOP putting words in my mouth. Especially if you are going to gossip about me to others. Or is gossip no longer a sin?
I’m trying to catch up since I missed a few posts. Maybe this has been addressed elsewhere, but I am compelled to say that Jesus died for all of our sins. If we make a mistake, it’s covered. We have no need to be concerned for Tim’s soul — he is a forgiven lover of Jesus, the One who has washed each of us clean and continues to do so. No need for fear!
Tim, thank you for taking the time for this study. I love it; I love the history and am looking forward to each of us drawing conclusions based on what the Word of the Lord says.
May the Lord bless and keep you,
kim
Tim,
I never gossiped about you.
You SAID
I’ve heard brothers want to use blood alcohol levels, for example, to discuss what is sinful and what isn’t.
That is one of my question if we can drink strong drink how do we define drunkenness? I see no problem with using this as a standard, a very worldy one I might add. At minimum we know our government considers this drunk. I think we should live by a higher standard.
YOU SAID
“I think that part of the problem is that we take modern definitions of “drunkenness” and apply them to an ancient setting. We begin with what U.S. Protestantism says about the issue and read that back into the text. There is a difference between “drunkenness” as a lifestyle and being intoxicated at a wedding feast.”
That is statement you made that to me believe that you are saying that isolated incedences of getting drunk are not sin. You are concluding that God forbids 1) Drinking to get drunk. 2) drunkenness as a lifestyle. Those two statements would not include getting drunk.
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