Nick Gill and I were having a conversation on Facebook yesterday, discussing articles that support and oppose certain positions that we hold. (each of us taking a different side) Both agreed that there are articles that agree with our views that we find extremely distasteful and articles that reach opposite conclusions from us that use good arguments and sound reasoning. I made the following comment:
At this stage of my life, I’m much more interested in how a person reaches their conclusions rather than the conclusions themselves. Conclusions matter, but if I’m using unsound means to get there, others can follow those same paths and go just about anywhere.
Nick suggested that I share that thought on this blog, so… there it is! What do you think about that statement?
The process matters only if we are prepared to go where it takes us leaving our own baggage behind.
I’ve noticed in my own life, Rafael, that it’s always the other guy who is carrying baggage. Me… I’m traveling light.
In my own mind, of course.
I’m curious, Tim. I think I get the gist of what you are saying, but as the old saying goes, “the devil is in the details.”
Back in the olden days when we actually had to work out our Algebra and Trigonometry on paper, we could get partial credit if our “process” was correct even if our math was wrong and we came up with the wrong answer. However, it was virtually impossible to arrive at a correct answer with an invalid process.
You have referred to Mr. Guin’s article several times, lauding his process but then saying that you ultimately disagreed with his conclusions. So, where did he go wrong (in your estimation)? If the process was correct, the error had to come in with either faulty information, or wrong “math.” How does right process/wrong answer fit in with theology? Do we have a biblical example of someone who had the process right but ended up with the wrong answer? If you say, “Saul of Tarsus” then I would hate to follow in his shoes (at least pre-Damascus road) because he had to basically re-write the program of his spiritual life and re-boot his whole computer (see ‘sojourn in Arabia’).
You have piqued my interest, not because I think you are wrong, but just because I would like to see how you would give a specific example.
Thanks for the thought provoking posts.
Paul
Paul,
I’m thinking in terms of overall benefit/harm to the Kingdom. While I don’t really expect to convince people one way or another through any given blog posts, I hope that my reasoning can help others as they sort things out for themselves.
If I say, “We have to take a collection every first day of the week because Paul said so in 1 Corinthians 16:2,” then I have to be equally ready to hold what was collected until someone shows up to take it to Jerusalem. The concept of a weekly collection isn’t bad; it’s the process that’s damaging.
As far as Jay’s book, I pointed out the steps of the process where I diverged from Jay. Changing a step along the way leads to a different outcome. Yet I think much of what Jay brings in concerning word meaning, extrabiblical sources, etc. is helpful.
Grace and peace,
Tim
Ah, got it.
Thanks.
Paul
Tim – I agree that process matters very much. And I do think it is possible for people to apply the same process and yet ultimately come to different conclusions — because it isn’t “math”
I think the danger (for me) is that if an answer obtained through a “good” process conflicts with one that is “proven” by “bad” process, I may have a tendency to accept the “good process” answer” even though my “gut” says the “bad” process answer is closer to the “truth”.
However, when I examine these “gut” feelings I find that it is actually easier to apply critical logical reasoning to the “good process” and discover where we diverge and to have an intelligent dialog about those differences.
“Bad” process usually has so many “arbitrary” conclusions that it is difficult to have a rational dialog about it.
In any case if we are going to have a dialog on an issue we do need to discuss the reasonableness of the process or we’ll never get anywhere.
God Bless
Charlie
Tim, I absolutely, positively agree with you 100% I need to be shown how you come to your conclusion, not to just hear your conclusion. Example; I have written many times that I see where the bible in many places says that Jesus is subordinate to God Almighty, and have pointed out many times the reason for my conclusion. I have been banned from commenting on blogs just because the blogger disagrees with my conclusion, Jay Guin is one of those bloggers. I have asked how they arrived at their conclusion that I was wrong, and what I get is a reference back to the “church fathers” in other words they are quoting the conclusions of others, although the “CF” had the same information we have today. Yes for someone to make an impression on me I need to know the process by which they came to their conclusion. Just saying another man said so, does not impress me much, if any at all. Tim, I am not asking for your opinion here (I already know it) just an example of what you said happens.
Laymond, I’m amazed that you agree, though I notice you didn’t miss a chance to switch to your favorite topic.
The invitation to discuss that topic in the appropriate place always stands: http://www.timothyarcher.com/kitchen/wp-admin/edit-comments.php?p=244