Discussions about the divine, as we’ve seen can be problematic. To be honest, I’m not fond of non-biblical terms like “trinity” nor am I fully up to date about all the different opinions out there. I’ve already shown that I believe Jesus to be God, but I don’t believe Jesus to be the Father. Passages like Romans 8:9-11 help me see this:
“You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.” (Romans 8:9-11)
Who lives in us? Is it the Spirit? Christ? The Spirit of Christ? The Spirit of God? The Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead? The answer, of course, is YES. Jesus is God and lives in us. He’s not the Father; Paul seems to avoid such language. Yet, they are both God.
Romans 8 shows us that the Spirit is also in the equation. We also see that in other passages, like the letters to the 7 churches in Revelation. The letters are clearly from Jesus, yet each letter ends with an urge for the readers to hear what the Spirit had to say to the churches. Again, no New Testament writer would say that the Spirit had been crucified nor that the Spirit was the Father. Yet the Spirit is shown to be divine.
No, I can’t explain it. Not fully. I can’t explain God’s eternal nature either. I can’t explain how He can hear thousands of people praying to Him in dozens of different languages. I can’t explain lots of things about God. As I’ve said before, I like it that way. I want a God who is bigger than I. One I can’t completely wrap my thoughts around. That’s my God.
Gospel of John
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Gospel of John (also referred to as the Gospel According to John, the Fourth Gospel, or simply John) is one of the four canonical gospels in the Christian Bible. In the New Testament it traditionally appears fourth, after the synoptic gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke. John begins with the witness and affirmation of John the Baptist and concludes with the death, burial, resurrection, and post-resurrection appearances of Jesus.
Chapter 21 states that the book derives from the testimony of the “disciple whom Jesus loved” and early church tradition identified him as John the Apostle, one of Jesus’ Twelve Apostles. The gospel is closely related in style and content to the three surviving Epistles of John such that commentators treat the four books,[1] along with the Book of Revelation, as a single body of Johannine literature. According to most modern scholars, however, the apostle John was not the author of any of these books.
Wikipedia. Nice. Based on a quote from a book from 1985. By someone no one has ever heard of.
Have fun with those games, Laymond. If the Bible doesn’t say what you want it to, just deny the source. Unless of course it’s you quoting John about Jesus’ baptism or quoting some proof texts from John 17.
Here are some of the reasons I believe that Jesus is God made flesh:
(1) Direct statements in the New Testament calling Jesus God.
(2) Old Testament scripture containing the name YHWH applied to Jesus.
(3) Passages that refer to Jesus as being deity.
(4) Jesus calling himself “I AM,” which almost got him killed by the Jews.
(5) Jesus’ acceptance of worship.
(6) Passages that apply the same terms to Jesus and to God, especially those that occur in the same book.
That being said, I don’t think that our belief on this topic should be a test of fellowship. Here’s what I wrote before on this question:
http://www.thedisciplewhomjesusloved.com/authority-of-Gods-word-scripture/
I think you might enjoy reading this free e-book. Read it then comment on it if you wish, I have read it and found it interesting.
Laymond, you may be surprised how uninterested I am in following this tangent. Ireneas, who was a disciple of Papias, who was a disciple of John thought John wrote it. That’s pretty powerful. But even if John didn’t write it, we have evidence that the book is extremely old, from the late first century, and it was accepted by the early church.
But my belief in Jesus’ divinity isn’t built on the authorship of the fourth gospel.
Funny how you had nothing to say about what you said earlier. Let’s try this one again, because it’s an important point. You said: “Why must you accept things that are not easily understood, and reject those which are.”
To that I replied: “If something is “easily understood,” wouldn’t it stand to reason that the majority of scholars would understand it that way? Would you say that more Christians and more Christian scholars see things your way or my way?”
Any thoughts?
Tim, Actually to my way of thinking if Lazarus were the author of the book.
It would give more creditability, not less.
Tim, whether you read this book, a book which is actually a bible study (I did not find anything in it that was not derived from bible study) can’t take away from the in depth study this person did concerning “the disciple Jesus loved” .
I guess one question that comes to mind is about your view of inspiration. Does it play any role in all of this? Is Matthew’s testimony more valid than Mark’s because Matthew was there? Or did they both have some sort of divine help when writing these books?
Are these merely human works, like the writings of Josephus?
Just curious… do you agree with this paragraph from that e-book you recommended:
If you agree, as I do, then this discussion is mainly an intellectual curiosity and not germane to the discussion of Jesus’ identity.
Tim, as you might know I have quoted the book of John many times as proof of what I believe about Jesus, and I believe it gives information that is not mentioned in any other book. So in my opinion it took someone with a “special” relationship with Jesus. to write this book. I could never see where John the apostle had that relationship. I have thought for a while that the author could be either Mary who washed Jesus feet, or the disciple whom Jesus raised from death. Lazarus. This research eliminated the disciple being a woman. so that leaves me with only one that fits the bill. I have never questioned the author’s believability, just individual’s understanding. of what was said. I can not see anyone that was given life again, not having the highest regards for the one who gave that life back. if you haven’t read it already, I recommend it highly to anyone who believes in the truthfulness of the bible.
“Are these merely human works, like the writings of Josephus?’
I believe they were inspired by reports of what they were told, as for Mark or Luke they were reporting things they were told and believed, in close proximity of the time. and their friendship with those who were there. and those who were indwelled by the “holy ghost” the apostles. The apostles had the spirit of truth to call on, all others had the apostles to call on.
I don’t recall Josephus claiming to be acquainted with any apostle.
That’s what I’m trying to figure out, Laymond. In your opinion, do the words of the New Testament writers carry more weight than those of Philo or Josephus (and they’re only examples)? Does Papias, who was a disciple of John, have as much authority as Paul? Is it only certain New Testament writers who wrote God-inspired words? All of the writers, but only some of the time?
Do you think the New Testament writings are “God-breathed” Scripture? Or are they profitable readings for Christians and nothing more? Or something in between?
Tim, I don’t believe every word written by any writer of the bible was dictated from the whispered word of God. If that were so why did Jesus have to die to bring the word of God, when it was available in another way? I believe the word of God was available to the apostles, through the comforter. Paul believed the word of God was available to the apostles and to those who were baptized by the apostles. Whether what I believe is true, or what Paul believes is true , makes on difference in this day and time. Because I believe as Paul did these powers expired. And I do believe we know much more about the relationships of Jesus than we would if not for the “fourth gospel” and I believe it was written by one who had much more access to Jesus than the apostles did. I don’t know what else I can tell you about what I believe about the inspiration of New Testament writings . I believe they were inspired by things Jesus did, not by what was whispered in their ear.
I’m in agreement as far as no “divine dictation.” There’s too much evidence of individual differences between the authors.
I don’t agree that Jesus died “to bring the word of God.”
I believe that the Bible is God-breathed, that is, the message of the Bible is from God. I believe that God preserved His message for us through the writings that make up the Bible. I believe that what is in the Bible is truth.
Because of that, I submit myself to God’s Word, as recorded in the Bible. I will put myself above no New Testament writer nor my ideas on the par with theirs. When reading something, I don’t wonder if the author got the facts right or somehow misunderstood what had happened. I don’t ask myself whether or not this verse or that verse is authoritative. Because of that, discussions about who wrote a certain book or books can be interesting, but don’t affect my understanding of what God has to say to us.
When you get a chance, please don’t forget to respond to this:
Tim, you said “I don’t agree that Jesus died “to bring the word of God.””
OK maybe I did jump across a cavern here, so lets expound on it some.
Jesus was born to bring the word of God to his people, so by the grace of God his people could be saved. Jesus died and was raised to prove the word of God was truth. Jesus death and resurrection confirmed that men could die and be raised again to life eternal. If Jesus had died and not raised what do you think would have happened.? So Jesus died to prove the word of God. If Jesus were God it would have proved nothing, except that gods don’t die. If Jesus had just showed up on earth one day, with no human past do you think people would haven listened to him? probably not.
“Would you say that more Christians and more Christian scholars see things your way or my way?”
Any thoughts?”
Tim, do you think they would be classified as scholars, unless they had some grand opinion. And as Mr. Phillips said in his bible study, it is easy to get people to follow a grand opinion. Such as God is a trinity, or Jesus is God.
I don’t recall where it is said we will be accepted by majority opinion.
I believe Jesus said the road to salvation was straight and narrow and few would find it.
No doubt a straight and narrow road is less exciting, than driving fast on a crooked slippery one, but it is not as dangerous either. We are more apt to arrive at our destination if we do it the instructors way.
Let me repeat: “I don’t agree that Jesus died to bring the word of God.” I’ll add: “I don’t believe Jesus was born to bring the word of God to his people.” If information had been all that was needed, God could have provided that information without sending His Son. If evidence for the truth of God’s Word was all that was needed, Jesus certainly didn’t need to die.
Now please let me ask you to try and read the things I write in their context. You accused me of rejecting what is easily understood in favor of what is hard to understand. That is the accusation I was responding to. That is the context in which my words should be understood. Please note that I never said, “More people believe that Jesus is God so you need to agree with that.” The majority can be wrong. I was directly addressing your accusation, which is why I quoted it all three times that I brought it up.
Here are some of the reasons I believe that Jesus is God made flesh:
(1) Direct statements in the New Testament calling Jesus God.
(2) Old Testament scripture containing the name YHWH applied to Jesus.
(3) Passages that refer to Jesus as being deity.
(4) Jesus calling himself “I AM,” which almost got him killed by the Jews.
(5) Jesus’ acceptance of worship.
(6) Passages that apply the same terms to Jesus and to God, especially those that occur in the same book.
That being said, I don’t think that our belief on this topic should be a test of fellowship. Here’s what I wrote before on this question:
” I was directly addressing your accusation, which is why I quoted it all three times that I brought it up.”
Tim, I don’t know of a plainer spoken scripture in the bible than this.
Niv version.
Hebrews 2:10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered.
(who besides Jesus, do you think is referred to as the pioneer)
And by the way this says that God the Father made everything that was made.
To my simple mind this sounds really easy to understand, unless it is some kind of code, but you tell me the bible says no, Jesus is the creator of all things. and that is very hard for me to understand )
( You tell me Jesus is God, but the Hebrew writer tells me that God made Jesus perfect by his suffering, was he born perfect, or was he made perfect. It sounds simple to me Jesus was born imperfect otherwise he could not have been made perfect by his suffering)( I believe this was mentioned way back in Isaiah)
Why must you accept things that are not easily understood, and reject those which are. It just seemed to me that you struggle with the simple things of scripture. only you can say why.
Laymond, I’ve already answered Hebrews 2:10 check the comments.
Here are some plain statements for you:
I’m not interested in dueling scriptures, but I really resent the fact that you would again accuse me of rejecting things that are “easily understood.” I don’t think you’re stupid, so I can only think that you are intentionally ignoring what’s being said in this discussion. And that’s frustrating.
The Bible says numerous times that Jesus is God, yet you struggle with such a simple thing. The Bible talks of Jesus being equal with God and laying that aside. The Bible talks about the fulness of the Godhead being found in Jesus. The Bible speaks of Jesus as creator. The Bible takes verses that talk about YHWH and says they have their fulfillment in Jesus. The Bible speaks of the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ as being the same thing. The Bible calls God the Alpha and the Omega, then calls Jesus the same thing one chapter later. One chapter!
We can go on and on, but is there a point? Stop acting like your point of view is “so easily understood.” It’s not. Neither of these views is simple nor easily understood.
Let me leave you with a question, one that I’m sure is easily understood and one of the simple things of scripture. Talk about any of this that you’d like, but please answer this question:
The Bible says several times that there is only one Lord. Who is the Lord?
” I don’t think you’re stupid, ”
Well thanks Tim, I have never been accused of being “stupid” at any level of education, nor in business. I will get to the three scripture you are placing above all others that say Jehovah God was the creator of all things, and I won’t judge your intellect when I do.
When you do, please remember that I believe that the One God is the Creator: Father, Son, Spirit. Showing me a verse that says the Father is the Creator DOES NOT negate that Jesus also be Creator.
Tim, you asked “who is Lord”? let’s let Paul answer that one.
Tim, you said “When you do, please remember that I believe that the One God is the Creator: Father, Son, Spirit. Showing me a verse that says the Father is the Creator DOES NOT negate that Jesus also be Creator.”
I will let Paul tell you the difference between God, and Jesus as well.
Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars’ hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men’s hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Act 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
Act 17:33 So Paul departed from among them.
The two main vs I wanted to remind you of.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Tim you said Paul wrote that Jesus was the creator. are you saying Paul couldn’t keep his story straight. Or you may have misunderstood what Paul was saying. I don’t believe what he said on Mars’ hill could be mistaken.
Tim , please tell me who you think “that man” is that Paul speaks of.
I see. So Jesus isn’t Lord?
As for the rest, just read what I wrote, the part you quoted. Paul, as I, taught that Jesus was God. No contradiction in what he said on Mars Hill and what he says in Colossians about Jesus as Creator.
“Tim , please tell me who you think “that man” is that Paul speaks of.” Jesus.
“I see. So Jesus isn’t Lord?”
Not until God says he is.
“No contradiction in what he said on Mars Hill and what he says in Colossians about Jesus as Creator.”
I am not saying that statement is “stupid” but is getting pretty close.
“I am not saying that statement is “stupid” but is getting pretty close.” So much for civility, huh? Read some of the stuff you’ve written, and then tell me how you can insult my thoughts.
Never mind. Insults are your native language. You’ve proven that.
I’m guessing when you can’t hold your own in a discussion you just turn on the other guy.
Here are some of the reasons I believe that Jesus is God made flesh:
(1) Direct statements in the New Testament calling Jesus God.
(2) Old Testament scripture containing the name YHWH applied to Jesus.
(3) Passages that refer to Jesus as being deity.
(4) Jesus calling himself “I AM,” which almost got him killed by the Jews.
(5) Jesus’ acceptance of worship.
(6) Passages that apply the same terms to Jesus and to God, especially those that occur in the same book.
I believe that God is willing to bless you, Laymond, even though you deny so much of what he has done and is doing in this world. May God bless you. If you ever feel grown up enough to talk like adults, we can resume this conversation.
Tim, I am not the one who started using the word “stupid”
Usually when someone says something like ” I don’t think you’re stupid, ”
They do, and even if they don’t it is a greater insult, than saying someone said something stupid. I apologize for letting it get to me so, that I felt retaliation was necessary.
Then you were as childish as I was and said “Never mind. Insults are your native language. You’ve proven that.”
Then you questioned my salvation. “I believe that God is willing to bless you, Laymond, even though you deny so much of what he has done and is doing in this world.” I think it would be best to just let this conversation drop, until we both grow up. another four year rest might see us both adult enough to carry on a conversation, without name calling. Maybe we both should pray a little longer tonight.
Just one comment, Laymond. I didn’t mean to question your salvation. I’m sorry that you took it that way.
I agree that it would be a good time to let this conversation rest.
Mat 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
What does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit mean.?
Well it’s really pretty simple. “Blasphemy” is something slanderous and/or injurious to one’s good name. So what this is saying is that “speaking blasphemy against” the Holy Spirit is when someone knowingly and deliberately attributes the works of the Devil to God.
blasphēmia in the new testament =
1.slander, detraction, speech injurious, to another’s good name
2.impious and reproachful speech injurious to divine majesty
nĕ’atsah = plasphemy in the old testament.
1.contempt, contumely
2.contempt, blasphemy
Isa 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour.
Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Isa 44:8 Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.
surely, if accusing God of lying is not blasphemy of the holy spirt, I don’t know what would be.
Laymond, I tend to agree with you about blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. I try to be careful not to attribute things to Satan that could be of God, even when I’m skeptical. (i.e. speaking in tongues)
I also agree that accusing God of lying would be blasphemy.